Anyone sick of d20?

[Sigurd]

Min\Maxing is fueled by unrestricted access to expansions - WOTC and other publishers.

The publishers are producing material with new player centric improvements in flavour, character, and power. The prestige class is a min\maxers wet dream. Lets take a break from the rules after a couple of levels and choose a new set - how many prestige classes are there? How's a DM supposed to keep up?

Most of the ones I see the most and that are the worst are the WOTC ones, Radiant Servant etc... They are all fine if you want them but easy access to them can warp a game world. Most DM's have great trouble refusing a players fondist wish, in spite of any steriotype of Bastard DMs.

I'm sure 4th edition will be better, maybe for a year. Then the need to sell new books will fill it with exceptions and power creep too.


Sigurd

[kyxmma]

Min\Maxing is fueled by unrestricted access to expansions - WOTC and other publishers.

The publishers are producing material with new player centric improvements in flavour, character, and power. The prestige class is a min\maxers wet dream. Lets take a break from the rules after a couple of levels and choose a new set - how many prestige classes are there? How's a DM supposed to keep up?

Most of the ones I see the most and that are the worst are the WOTC ones, Radiant Servant etc... They are all fine if you want them but easy access to them can warp a game world. Most DM's have great trouble refusing a players fondist wish, in spite of any steriotype of Bastard DMs.

I'm sure 4th edition will be better, maybe for a year. Then the need to sell new books will fill it with exceptions and power creep too.


Sigurd

Well said. Yes I understand that you can min/maxin anygame but WOTC takes it too far in my opinion.

[guiguiBob]

it's their business model, they sell the books to the players looking to min max their character, by advertising a bunch of prestige classes, feats and spells. That's how they make their money and that way they make way more than if they were only publishing adventures and campaign setting. They make the players their primary customers and make more money like that.

[bobthebuilder]

I hate d20 and I have been sick of it for ages. Classic D&D is the best!

[FlatNineSharpFive]

There are better games out there than D&D, even for the classic fantasy experience. These systems are more fun, require roleplaying mechanically (you do not have to roleplay to play d20, so the roleplaying is a different game altogether), are easier to learn, run, and prepare for. You end up playing an awesome story after two or three hours, not just killing things to take their stuff so you can kill more things to take more stuff...

Anyone who is interested is welcome to PM me, and I'll organize a game.

[Valarian]

I hate d20 and I have been sick of it for ages. Classic D&D is the best!

Here, I disagree. I think that the d20 rules of D&D3e are superior to the old D&D (red/blue/green/black book) and the AD&D rules. For a start, the reversal of the THAC0 system was a vast improvement over the older rules. In my opinion, the enhancements of the D&D system have improved the system. I've yet to see 4th edition, but I've heard people making pleased noises over it. I doubt that I'll be buying it personally. But that will be for financial reasons, rather than game system.

[bobthebuilder]

Here, I disagree. I think that the d20 rules of D&D3e are superior to the old D&D (red/blue/green/black book)

Okay then, you play d20 and I'll play Classic D&D.

[tdwyer11b]

For a start, the reversal of the THAC0 system was a vast improvement over the older rules.

I never got this argument. I find it pretty easy to use THAC0, maybe I'm the exception. Interestingly, Gamma World had a reverse THAC0 system in it's 4th edition. Maybe TSR was on to something. I remember playing it way back when, and the mechanic took some getting used to since I was used to subtracting for my to hit rolls.

[Blue Haven]

I never got this argument. I find it pretty easy to use THAC0, maybe I'm the exception. Interestingly, Gamma World had a reverse THAC0 system in it's 4th edition. Maybe TSR was on to something. I remember playing it way back when, and the mechanic took some getting used to since I was used to subtracting for my to hit rolls.

And its easy to use but people that start playing at 3rd edition don´t know that...

[Valarian]

I never got this argument. I find it pretty easy to use THAC0, maybe I'm the exception. Interestingly, Gamma World had a reverse THAC0 system in it's 4th edition. Maybe TSR was on to something. I remember playing it way back when, and the mechanic took some getting used to since I was used to subtracting for my to hit rolls.

Maybe it's 'cos I never really got the "Armour makes you more difficult to hit". This never made sense to me. Armour makes to easier to hit, just it takes more to do any damage.

In the dim and distant past, I played D&D (red book through to black), and AD&D. These were the systems my school-era games were run with. One of my friends had Tunnels and Trolls and we played that as well.

With the old D&D and the AD&D rules, I couldn't get around this very well. When the d20 system came out with D&D3e, I finally had a nice easy mechanic for adding the descriptions of combat I wanted. If over 10, it hits you. The rest is dodging (Dex bonus: "You dodge out of the way"), Natural Armour ("The blow bounces off you"), Armour ("Your armour absorbs the blow"), etc.

I've now moved away from pure d20 D&D3e to some of the derivatives. These have separated the AC in to a Defence Value (modified by Dex). Armour has a Damage Reduction value, which reduces damage. Armour also still has the Max Dex and ACP values, so it encumbers. This makes sense to me, and doesn't slow the game down either. With the old THAC0 system, I was always struggling to come up with a decent description of the combat as the game flowed.