Question regarding Syrinscape integration and Packs you can buy from there homepage

[Trenloe]

I rather suggest to fix them instead of refund.

The refund suggestion was for someone who purchased without realizing the packs wouldn't work for their setup - which I don't think has anything to do with which Syrinscape packs are used in an FG soundlinks module. The rest of what you say has value though - thanks for posting about that.

[BaneTBC]

The soundpacks have been put together for our convenience and additional ones are in the works from various folks where I would expect they will be more specific to the sounds in individual packs from Syrinscape, like the Wild Beyond the Witchlight one that just got released. While I cannot speak to how those will be done and if some sounds will be added from outside the packs for them, I would expect that the majority won't be and if you owned just those packs on Syrinscape would be covered. The PHB and MM packs SmiteWorks worked up with Syrinscape doesn't exist as its own thing in Syrinscape, so working between the two they set it up from across their portfolio.

No one has to buy the SmiteWorks packs, they have been very upfront and I would consider clear about it, you can do all of the triggers yourself either using sounds you have in Syrinscape or locally on your computer. The packs they have put together were to help make a bit of it "easier" for a (hopefully) large number of people, so that the customers would get a return on their money spent (by saving time) and SW would get a return on their development of it (by getting some income). The packs have also been, what I would consider, reasonably priced. My time is worth my money in that regard.

Added benefits of having a Super Syrin subscription is that any packs that are released while you are under subscription will be yours ongoing, even if you cancel your subscription later. Previously, I just bought the packs I needed as I'm not really a fan of subscription services, but I can see the value (FOR ME) in supporting Syrinscape to make more packages for upcoming material or just for more general ones you can use as you see fit. My players like the immersion and it helps me to set the mood at points, especially in already completed packs for released WotC content that I am running. Homebrew, I would have to spend more time working at setting up my soundsets then I would on prepping for actual game content (yes, it could be argued that the sounds are being made part of the content but again my time is worth more than my money in this regard).

[Arnagus]

I am not argueing against the Syrinscape sound or their pricing - it's plain forward: subscription or buy packages.

What I expect is that a trigger package is using the context it is developed for: D&D packages only using sounds from D&D subscription, Adventure packages from the corresponding adventure pack.

The PHB & MM packages do indeed state "requires Super-Syrinscape subscription" - and this is where I question the WHY? This can be done in a much better way to, well, as you said: "to buy the packs needed" or the subscription needed for the setting. No need for a handaxe sound from a Wind West package.

And no, I do not assume intend to push for the Super- subscription. Just thoughtlessness.
"Do not assume malice what can be explained by ignorance" (sort of: Hanlon's Razor)

[Trenloe]

The PHB & MM packages do indeed state "requires Super-Syrinscape subscription" - and this is where I question the WHY?

Simply put - to provide the widest range of sounds for these products that have many spells/weapons (PHB) or creatures (MM); and also to try to keep things relatively simple.

In another example, the Pathfinder Bestiary - even with access to all Sytinscape sound packs, we couldn't find good sounds for about a dozen of the creatures from that bestiary. Restricting the Pathfinder Bestiary product to just "Pathfinder" Syrinscape sound packs would have resulted in much less creatures having context audio links in FG, or those creatures having less appropriate/thematic sounds.

As a user I want to have the widest range of sounds available in soundlinks - not restricted to a small subset that covers a few Syrinscape sound packs. As a developer I want to be able to select context and trigger sounds from the widest range of sounds also.

Ultimately, exactly what Syrinscape sound packs are used in which Fantasy Grounds soundlink module will come down to the selection of the developer. It could get very complex, and restrictive, for a developer to be limited to a subset of sound packs; or have to keep track of all of the sound packs they use - currently the data provided from the Syrinscape API to FG makes that very difficult, if not impossible.

I understand why some people wouldn't want to take out a subscription, but from my side (as a user and a developer) I want soundlink packs to have the most wide ranging set of sounds available - and not be restricted; especially the generic PHB/MM/Bestiary packs.

I agree that for some adventures, if there was an approprite Syrinscape adventure pack, that restricting the sounds to the adventure pack only could be an option to investigate - for example, the Curse of Strahd adventure has a fairly comprehensive "mega pack" on Syrinscape - at $89.99. I would also imagine that even within this mega pack, there would be some context sounds that might be better served with sounds from outside of the adventure specific packs.

Either way, it's not possible to satisfy all users, unless there's two different soundlinks modules created - one for a restrictive soundset and one for a supersyrin soundset, but even that wouldn't satisfy everyone - what about the people on just the Dungeons & Dragons subscription? This would just lead to more confusion and a massive increase in the dev time needed to create these soundlink packs. It's already a massive task to create these soundlink packs, and most of them are created by commission based converters or Syrinscape themselves. I want to see more of these soundlink products - making it harder for the dev to create them is just going to result in less soundlink sets being released, and that would be a big shame.

Just thoughtlessness.

I think that's a very inaccurate, and unfair, comment. I think there's been a lot of thought put into the Fantasy Grounds Syrinscape solution - from SmiteWorks and from Syrinscape.

[Neovirtus]

My impression was that the SuperSyrin subscription was required, not for the range of sounds available but for the fact that Syrinscape states that the Online player is only available at that tier. Now, I have heard that it is still considered to be "in beta" or some such and is therefore available to all users for the time being. Not sure if that's accurate or not, but my impression was that it wouldn't be the case forever and that it wouldn't be responsible for SW to sell those sound packs under the false pretense of them being compatible with lower tiers of subscription.

[Arnagus]

I think that's a very inaccurate, and unfair, comment. I think there's been a lot of thought put into the Fantasy Grounds Syrinscape solution - from SmiteWorks and from Syrinscape.

Fair enough - the direction of thinking was very different. Not without thoughts, but not considering the thoughts I (personally) find important.
I still believe that the sheer number of sounds from different packages even outside of the Fantasy genre should have been avoided, but the fundamental disagreement is on the selling model. FGU is available as one time purchase, similar as Syrinscape packages - and as subscription which is not my favorite. The Trigger packages now change the game, at least for Syrinscape. You are forced into the subscription model. I believe this implication has been overlooked.
I hope that we still see an update of the packages. If its okay, happy to publish my analysis of used sounds (but it contains some sounds I could not even pinpoint a package for). As it contained the trigger names, sound names and identified soundsets, which are part of the paid for package, I was hesitant to do so.

[Trenloe]

If its okay, happy to publish my analysis of used sounds (but it contains some sounds I could not even pinpoint a package for). As it contained the trigger names, sound names and identified soundsets, which are part of the paid for package, I was hesitant to do so.

I'm not sure what that's going to accomplish, other than interest - and it's a lot of work for you. If you really want to get to this level, maybe look at the soundsets you would use - and then look at how much that could cost you to buy outside of the Syrinscape subscription? I think you might be surprised at the cost of having permanent access to the soundpacks that provide a good range of unique sounds. But, again, other than interest, I don't know what that would accomplish. In the end, these are decisions that would need to be made by SmiteWorks, Syrinscape and the individual soundlink DLC devs.

Regarding forcing into a subscription or buying individual soundpacks. Let's take a hypothetical example - in the future there's a "D&D Icewind Dale Rime of the Frostmaiden" adventure soundlinks FG module created. So, for the purpose of this example, the dev decides (or is instructed) to only use sounds from the Syrinscape DnD Music & Sounds: Icewind Dale - Rime of the Frostmaiden Megapack which costs $89.99 or the montly D&D subscription of $7.15. So, whoever pays for Syrinscape for the gaming group would have the choice of paying a one-off $89.99 or $7.15 per month for the Syrinscape Dungeons & Dragons subscription - with them controlling when that subscription is active. Of course there's also the cost of the FG soundlinks module, but that is a one-off fee whichever route is taken, so doesn't come into the specific discussion of subscription vs. one-off Syrinscape soundset purchase.

In the example in the previous paragraphs: is a one-off Syrinscape soundset purchase fee of $89.99 more acceptable than a $7.15/month Syrinscape subscription? I'm genuinely curious as to what's seen as an acceptable cost outside of the subscription.

[Arnagus]

I'm not sure what that's going to accomplish, other than interest - and it's a lot of work for you.

Work was already done - hence I can talk of numbers. And yes, it is for those other users looking into the information which is title to this thread.

Is a one-off fee of $89.99 more acceptable to a $7.15/month subscription?

As for the pricing - I would still rather buy the package which is same price as the subscription for roughly ONE year. If I stop the subscription - I can still use the package. Subscription is a buy-in scheme. Once you start, it's hard to stop. And I do already own several Megapacks on modules I run, plus the "you simply need this" packages like D&D spells, Pathfinder Characters, etc.
I prefer the paid once, kept (sort of) forever model.
What pushes my button is that some developer took the decision from me by making the "buy once" unnecessary highly expensive when using the Trigger packages.

[Trenloe]

Interesting... I wonder how many other people would be willing to pay $89.99 to cover the sounds in the example I gave?

And you expect a package to be approx $85 per year - that nearly matches. But what happens if your group switches to play Curse of Strahd during that year - that's another $89.99 for that sound megapack. So, two adventures = $179.98. I think there's a lot of people who would baulk at that - even with it being a pay once and keep cost.

Plus, what about the cloud server expenses of Syrinscape for this web player?

It sounds like your main issue is with subscription based products and also with Syrinscape's pricing model?

Ultimately, there's a great technical solution for providing amazing dynamic sounds within Fantasy Grounds - and there's some specific requirements for that, for a bunch of reasons some technical, some commercial (a lot of which we're not party to - e.g. licensing), some dev friendly and some to keep things simple to try to avoid confusion. The soundlink modules will make it much easier for a GM who's willing to meet the specific requirements. For those who aren't willing to meet those requirements then they can either use the soundlink packs and miss out on some sounds (which they can edit and add in their own replacements if they wish) or create their own.

What pushes my button is that some developer took the decision from me by making the "buy once" unnecessary highly expensive when using the Trigger packages.

As mentioned above, even with restricting the sounds available, the price is going to be pretty high for a buy once model. And, from a developer perspective, the goal is to produce a product in a reasonable time, with a wide range of sounds, and make it easier to support - restricting the sounds used makes all three of these tasks worse/harder, and will result in less soundlink modules being created by devs - because they won't want the hassle for a few dollars hobby money.

Maybe this will change in the future and SmiteWorks will publish details of exactly what soundpacks are used, and maybe they'll enforce more stringent soundpack use restrictions on the soundlink DLC (from my perspective, I hope they don't). Either way, without putting a massive overhead on the DLC devs (which would, in my opinion, result in much less soundlink packs being produced - which will be a massive shame) there isn't going to be one solution that's going to satisfy everyone.

In the end, I doubt we're going to agree on this - which is fine. it's OK to discuss and disagree. I just hope you see if from the FG dev/support side as well and understand where they are coming from.

[Arnagus]

Interesting... I wonder how many other people would be willing to pay $89.99 to cover the sounds in the example I gave?

That I cannot answer. There are extensive research papers published on the topic "subscription vs. purchase", depending on the sponsor of the research with the expected outcome.
One common pattern is a bias of US for subscription vs. purchase for EU, but there are no clear results. Even for the "break even" point, some research hints at 1 year, some at 3 years.
I guess this is where business decisions need to be made for woe or weal of a company.

But what happens if your group switches to play Curse of Strahd during that year - that's another $89.99 for that sound megapack.

That would indeed be the case, but with a weekly cycle (minus vacations, business reasons, etc), my group has 30-40 sessions per year. That's covering less than one campaign (as I also do create some extra material).

Plus, what about the cloud server expenses of Syrinscape for this web player?

That should be part of their business model, and is their problem. It would work with one time purchases as well as subscription - calculations are just different.
However - they have taken the decision to offer two models: subscription and one-time. If they offer it, I can choose.

It sounds like your main issue is with subscription based products and also with Syrinscape's pricing model?

Actually not - as I am a happy customer (using AudioOverseer) long before the Sound integration. And my choice as customer was "package purchase".
As said: what pushes my button is, that I no longer have this choice.

For those who aren't willing to meet those requirements then they can either use the soundlink packs and miss out on some sounds (which they can edit and add in their own replacements if they wish) or create their own.

Don't get me wrong - the trigger packages still provide a value-add as a baseline for my owned sounds. But they force people not investing time into the customization into the SyrinScape subscription. And that is a choice I had as a customer taken from me. As my time is limited, I rather pay for a ready-to-use solution and prefer creating content for the players.

As mentioned above, even with restricting the sounds available, the price is going to be pretty high for a buy once model.

And here it comes again. Choice taken from me.

Rather, work with SyrinScape to have a package MATCHING the trigger packages. THAT would be a true integration... and one already stared by SyrinScape as they created the "Melee Weapon" package matching all the 5e... well: melee weapons.

OLD: I would even have paid them for the package. But they made it part of the free offer.

Well, turns out that there was a mistake on Syrinscape side and the package was not meant to be free. As said: It's absolutely worth to buy to have all D&D melee weapon hit/miss/critical in one go!

And for the spells - there is already a package: D&D Spellcasters. So 80% of the PHB is covered - in two packages. In an ideal world...
For MM, I see your challenges as the monster sounds are really spread widely into the adventure and creature sound sets. Nevertheless, I suggest to discuss with SyrinScape a "MM" (mega) package.

And, from a developer perspective, the goal is to produce a product in a reasonable time, with a wide range of sounds, and make it easier to support

You are beside the topic: I am not speaking about a wrong choice on time, cost or quality (choose two). I am talking about an assumption taken on your customers.
If the consumer has a choice - don't take it from him.

In the end, I doubt we're going to agree on this - which is fine. it's OK to discuss and disagree. I just hope you see if from the FG dev/support side as well and understand where they are coming from.

I agree that we disagree, and I hope you also see my point on the "pushed into subscription" topic (and now, I step down from my soapbox).