Handling per PC and per NPC detection

[webdove]

Hi,

The Core Rulebook p465 says "Typically, the GM tracks how well creatures detect each other".

PF2 makes a big deal about how the time varying state of detection (Undetected, Hidden, Observed) between each PC/NPC pair affects play.

It appears that I need to maintain a table of how detected all the NPCs are to each PC and how detected all the PCs are to each NPC. I need to adjust the table and the implied effects on actors each time an action is taken (e.g. Rat #1 is flat-footed relative to Merisiel).
This looks difficult since effects are not generally actor specific. For example if I put flat-footed on Rat #1 for Merisiel's first action I seem to have to then remove it for her second action.

Have you given any thought to in game tools to help me with this activity (like the future Save DC window will help with saving throws) or automation that might be beneficial?

(I am cringing thinking about having to do this all manually and wondering how others have been handling it in Release 18.

Thanks

Web

[Zacchaeus]

This kind of thing is worked out when it becomes the player or NPCs turn on the Combat Tracker.

So it comes around to Bob's turn; what can he see at this point. What enemies can he target; which ones are in cover or hidden. All of that would be a simple matter of looking at the map (assuming the map has line of sight switched on and you have lighting also switched on). If Bob can see a token then they can attack it. If the target has cover then there's effects that can be applied and if Bob has any special abilities that would make the target flat-footed for example then he can apply that effect to the target before making his attack. Similarly when it comes to an NPCs turn do they see Bob; or do they have any senses that would allow them to see Bob. If they have or they don't rely on special senses and Bob is in their line of sight then they can target him.

And really all of this is only going to apply to the situation before combat really begins. Most of the perception stuff will be done by any characters using the Seek action. It will be they who need to roll perception and you'll need to decide whether the NPCs detect them. Once combat starts pretty much everyone on both sides will be aware of everyone else unless they are deliberately trying to hide; are invisible or have some special abilities that make them difficult to detect.

I don't think you need to have a running commentary of how detection changes after every action.

[Trenloe]

There's really no need to go into great detail here. Definitely don't think along the lines of maintaining a table of detection, let FG handle the main things and then apply effects/conditions when needed.

This is what I do:

1. Show/hide NPCs via the "eye" icon in the CT to make NPC tokens seen or not seen - both on the map on in the CT. If you're using LoS/Lighting you can also let FG handle the display of tokens on the map, but that will still have them visible in the CT.
2. If there's a specific activity that is being carried out and a condition/effect applies, then apply it as needed. You should be able to eyeball things to know if a NPC is concealed, has cover, etc..
3. If a creature does something to specifically add a condition - e.g. hides behind some barrels, then you can add the relevant condition/effect to them in the CT so that you don't forget and any activities against that creature will be taken into account.
4. If a PC has a specific ability then work with the player to get that set up and ask them to apply the relevant confitions/effects. For example, a rogue's surprise attack - "On the first round of combat, if you roll Deception or Stealth for initiative, creatures that haven’t acted are flat-footed to you." Don't bother setting all creatures that have an initiative lower than the rogue to flat-footed to the rogue; if the ability applies then ask the player to add the flat-footed effect to their target before they do any attack/damage actions and ask them to remove it after.

If you're running a long term game with the same players, I'll work with the players to set up their PCs to allow them to apply the effects/conditions they need for the PCs from their FG character sheet. I'll also work with them to make sure they know how to use the character sheet - this makes the game a little slow at first, but the time investment is worth it as all the players get to know more about how to use FG and will quickly be handling most of the activities related to their PCs themselves.

Anything else is handled on a case-by-case basis. If a player says their PC is attacking a target that is concealed to them, then ask the player to wait a moment and either you or they can quickly apply the "concealed" condition before rolling the attack. You could also ask the player to use the modifiers window to set various conditions before they roll their attack and/or damage - things like cover, flat-footed, concealed/hidden and MAP.

Have you given any thought to in game tools to help me with this activity (like the future Save DC window will help with saving throws) or automation that might be beneficial?

Yes, a lot of thought has gone into how the ruleset has been designed so far. And Release 19 expands on this dramatically, but Release 18 still allows for a lot of automation.

(I am cringing thinking about having to do this all manually and wondering how others have been handling it in Release 18.

As mentioned above - work with your players to make the experience easier on everyone, and you don't need to track everything - apply things when they matter; it's straight forward to make a decision when an activity occurs and apply the relevant conditions/effects. If something needs to be tracked (especially something that has a duration) then apply the effect/condition in the CT with a duration so that it doesn't get forgotten about.

[Trenloe]

This looks difficult since effects are not generally actor specific. For example if I put flat-footed on Rat #1 for Merisiel's first action I seem to have to then remove it for her second action.

Effects can be actor specific if you use effect targeting. See Combat Tracker -> Targets here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassia...Combat-Tracker

For example if I put flat-footed on Rat #1 for Merisiel's first action I seem to have to then remove it for her second action.

Ask the player to control what effects they are applying, and removing. They can also use set the "Expenditure" to only apply to the next action/roll - see Campaign Effects -> Expenditure here: https://fantasygroundsunity.atlassia...mpaign-Effects

[Gwaihir Scout]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...l=1#post633961

[Trenloe]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...l=1#post633961

That's a good one if you use the modifiers a lot. If you use only a couple of specific modifiers frequently, you can drag it from the modifier window to a hotkey slot - this is in the base ruleset, no extension required.

[Atreides Ghola]

There's also the Desktop modifier buttons extension that gives you one-use effects for hidden, concealed, flat-footed, and the various cover states.

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...l=1#post633961

I don't think that actually applies the flat-footed effect, though. Just the -2 AC, so it won't trigger things like sneak attack damage.

[Gwaihir Scout]

I think you're right, so its usefulness depends on how you code Sneak Attack. I haven't seen the Rogue in use in PF2 yet, so I don't know if Trenloe automated it, but in PF1 we always used a one-use DMG effect instead of a constant IFT(flat-footed).

[Trenloe]

I don't think that actually applies the flat-footed effect, though. Just the -2 AC, so it won't trigger things like sneak attack damage.

You're correct. The Flat-footed modifier button is only used for Attacks. "IFT: Flat-footed" code looks for the "Flat-footed" condition.

[webdove]

This kind of thing is worked out when it becomes the player or NPCs turn on the Combat Tracker.

So it comes around to Bob's turn; what can he see at this point. What enemies can he target; which ones are in cover or hidden. All of that would be a simple matter of looking at the map (assuming the map has line of sight switched on and you have lighting also switched on). If Bob can see a token then they can attack it. If the target has cover then there's effects that can be applied and if Bob has any special abilities that would make the target flat-footed for example then he can apply that effect to the target before making his attack. Similarly when it comes to an NPCs turn do they see Bob; or do they have any senses that would allow them to see Bob. If they have or they don't rely on special senses and Bob is in their line of sight then they can target him.

And really all of this is only going to apply to the situation before combat really begins. Most of the perception stuff will be done by any characters using the Seek action. It will be they who need to roll perception and you'll need to decide whether the NPCs detect them. Once combat starts pretty much everyone on both sides will be aware of everyone else unless they are deliberately trying to hide; are invisible or have some special abilities that make them difficult to detect.

I don't think you need to have a running commentary of how detection changes after every action.

My reading of PF2 rules is that the state of awareness between an observer and a target changes when they roll a stealth initiative coming out of an Avoid Notice activity, when they take the seek action to become more aware, or when the targets take an actions like Hide, Step, Sneak or Stride or make an attacks. So when an observer starts it's turn there is no automatic new assessment of what they detect and how well. The prior state of awareness to all potential targets is their starting point, not a new awareness assessment. This necessitates keeping track of the state of awareness for each actor to any potential targets. If during the round a target successfully sneaks to a new covered or concealed location and becomes unnoticed to a given observer then when that observer's turn comes around, that is the observers starting awareness for that potential target.

I do appreciate Trenloe's point below that I can enlist the players to keep track of their PC's awareness state to all potential targets rather then me having to do it for them. That will simplify my job.

Similarly I can see that having the player put conditions like flat-footed or hidden on targets before they take actions would save me work and time as well.

Unfortunately they cannot do that ahead of their turn since FGU does not have the equivalent of targeted effects for effects that only apply when a particular source actor is acting under the influence of that effect (e.g. flat-footed, but only if attacked by PC Merisel). Such an FGU capability would allow the state of awareness related effect for a given source actor to be left on the target between turns. That said, it might well be more complicated for me to remove and edit source specific condition effects on all the NPCs than to do as Trenloe suggests below and just re-add the necessary effects based on the records that the player or I keep of the evolving state of awareness for each PC and NPC as various actions are taken.