Web browser support

[Morenu]

...I've been resisting because I don't want to have to purchase all the rule books/adventures/etc again, again. (Once for the physical, and some again for FG). Just a thought for the powers-that-be. As much as I like FG, my party might be out-voting me into leaving the platform.

And this is NOT a good thing to depend on. I honestly would pay a small monthly or yearly fee to have this option

[BaneTBC]

Just hand them the bill for all of it on a new platform and then for your time learning it and see how their vote goes.

I use FG in combination with both remote players and players at the table with me. One player brings their laptop (although I have another laptop sitting here that could be used) and connects it to the table battlemap TV and can bring up the in-person players character sheets and launch their actions, the in-person players have printed character sheets, dice, towers, et al. It works well, only part that gets a little hung up is mini's on the TV when the map starts jumping around depending on where players and NPC's are, but we manage that portion. Personally, I'd prefer to ban all other electronic devices at the table since nothing is more irritating than someone playing a game on their phone.....

[Jiminimonka]

Just hand them the bill for all of it on a new platform and then for your time learning it and see how their vote goes.

I use FG in combination with both remote players and players at the table with me. One player brings their laptop (although I have another laptop sitting here that could be used) and connects it to the table battlemap TV and can bring up the in-person players character sheets and launch their actions, the in-person players have printed character sheets, dice, towers, et al. It works well, only part that gets a little hung up is mini's on the TV when the map starts jumping around depending on where players and NPC's are, but we manage that portion. Personally, I'd prefer to ban all other electronic devices at the table since nothing is more irritating than someone playing a game on their phone.....

Good idea(s)

[JohnD]

I don't know if the FG folks are monitoring this thread, but I thought I'd add my experiences. I've had FGU since it came out and FGC before that. While I've had games, I haven't been able to get my core group to switch. The biggest reason is they don't want to give up face-to-face (and bringing everybody's computer over isn't realistic). Without a portable option (tablet or a web interface that's tablet friendly), I don't see them making the switch. Recently (as soon as I installed the TV into a table), they started on me to switch over to roll20, since it'll work on the various tablets. I've been resisting because I don't want to have to purchase all the rule books/adventures/etc again, again. (Once for the physical, and some again for FG). Just a thought for the powers-that-be. As much as I like FG, my party might be out-voting me into leaving the platform.

Figure out what books you'll need on the new platform. Then figure out how much time you'll need to learn to use the new platform with a level of aptitude that you currently use FG with and charge $50/hour for your efforts. Then figure out what level of license you need for the new platform to duplicate what you have currently with FG and extrapolate this to a yearly amount.

Take all of the above and present your players with a bill for your time and inconvenience. Maybe they will still want you to switch. Maybe not.

Or you could try to gather a new group of players that are fine using FG. It won't be hard unless you're playing one of the lesser known systems.

You're the DM. They show up and play after you've already put in all the work getting ready and probably having spent your own money for whatever you need to run your game (or, worse, 100s of hours on data entry...). Your players sound a little bit selfish and unappreciative of your time and effort as their GM.

Just my opinion, not trying to start a flame war, but a lot of the time people don't realize how much extra "work" goes into running a game until they themselves try it and tap out sometime around hour 3.

I hope you can get your players to expand their horizons a little, but if not, you will easily find more players happy to use FG... players do outnumber DMs probably 30:1 after all (and good DMs 60:1).

[zarlor]

That does bring another thought into this. We're being asked to use Idea Informer to help vote on feature requests to help the developers provide a roadmap for future developmental priorities. However I fear that in a situation like that it's going to get lost in mix because there will be so many who simply take one look at FGU see there is no web or other portable interface and walk away, no voting needed, ditto for those who find themselves getting pulled to another platform because of the needs of their players.

And suggesting that a GM charge their players to move to another platform is completely unrealistic. Some GMs are the GM for a group in part because they were the ones that could afford to be the person with all the books (or FGU license). Suggesting the only answer is to charge the very people who may not be able to afford that, let alone afford an entire computer just so they can play on Fantasy Grounds when they don't use a full desktop/laptop computer for anything else is just wishful thinking to get others to just do what you want. That's fine if you can do that, and that's fine if you feel FGU can survive in the future VTT landscape just the way it is. As a professional Systems Engineer, and one paid to watch for and try to keep up with future technologies I just expect that FGU may not be able to survive in its current format and I think that's a real shame and a huge loss for the gaming community, even if most of that same community would never realize it and how much FGU has influenced all of those other VTT platforms.

[Jiminimonka]

Zarlor. The comment about charging was made in reply to someone saying his players are trying to get him to switch platforms.

As for browser support being the future. Nah. The PC market has thousands and thousands of games, multi-player and otherwise that don't work in browsers. Steam in a browser? No. What about the console market?

To me browser only software is a lazy design.

[zarlor]

Zarlor. The comment about charging was made in reply to someone saying his players are trying to get him to switch platforms.

As for browser support being the future. Nah. The PC market has thousands and thousands of games, multi-player and otherwise that don't work in browsers. Steam in a browser? No. What about the console market?

To me browser only software is a lazy design.

Those are different use cases, potentially different markets, and even those are pushing for their own tablet (remember I said portable, not necessarily web), such as Steam Deck or Steam Link, even (which, I admit, I have actually be using as a kind of workaround for a portable FGU platform, but the interface design of FGU still causes some painful limitations that way as it really wasn't designed for a touch interface, really it's all about using mouse, right-click, and hover to work through a lot of it... great on PC, not so much on other platforms). I may be an avid gamer with computers all over the place (although computers are also how I make a living, so...) but most of my tabletop gamer friends just game on things like tablets anymore. Several don't even have a PC at home. It's just the way things are going, is all I'm saying, and limiting ourselves to PCs (and possible workarounds) isn't very forward-looking.

[LordEntrails]

It's just the way things are going, is all I'm saying, and limiting ourselves to PCs (and possible workarounds) isn't very forward-looking.

I agree with this. Despite not imagining doing so myself, ~10 years ago my niece wrote a term paper on her phone (poor thumbs).

The world is changing. But FG too has been changing. It's almost 20 years old now. And the move to Unity was forward looking, and not the type of architectural change taken lightly. I see SmiteWork constantly looking toward the future, while taking care of their current customers. Changing the UI away from keyboard/mouse paradigm is huge. It will come, in time. FG won't/isn't the first to adopt a new paradigm/technology, but it's one of the oldest for a reason. (And will only stay relevant if it keeps changing and caring for its customer base.)

[BaneTBC]

Well, the response to a group dictating what environment the DM\GM has to use and has spent a considerable sum of personal money on was partially tongue-in-cheek and partially a wakeup call for the players in that group that they are not being very fair and reasonable to the DM. Ultimately each group will need to come up with what works for them and work out how that works for them. I explore multiple solutions to my problems and determine what works best for us, but having a considerable investment into a platform that I feel works for MY needs is going to dictate more than a few complaints since my money and time are valuable to me as well.

And please don't take anyone's comments as being completely dismissive of SmiteWorks(SW) expanding the platform we use to be usable to a larger group of people and potentially expand our players options. Web browser support would be "nice" but for a lot of people, this isn't the first time it has been brought up nor the response that SW has a limited staff and has to determine where their priorities have to be set based on feasibility of options and difficulty of the work required. Animated maps had been a "nice ask" for people for quite a while now and was a "hope it happens someday" thing, well that's in Test right now and is expected to be released this month. So, those "nice to haves" or "wants" are always good to post and occasionally a refresh of the asks helps to keep the developers aware of people's desire to see a feature(s).

But I would also keep in mind that people should be evaluating what a platform does today to suite their needs as those are going to differ from person to person and table to table. Once you've determined your needs and find a suitable platform that meets the majority (or all if you're really lucky) of those needs, then that's where to invest. Most of the people who are using Fantasy Grounds Unity understand how it functions and where their uses will be dictated. Roll20 and Foundry have web browser functionality, but do not have the overall functionality that FG has for my needs, so they aren't very good options for me. And I'm very happy with how responsive SW is regarding this product and that they are constantly working on new features and functions that their user base wants. So, we never know when they may be able to spring a huge new surprise on us. But all of it still comes down to them having to prioritize their time and support for what they think will give them the biggest return on that investment, like most businesses.

[HywelPhillips]

Several don't even have a PC at home. It's just the way things are going, is all I'm saying, and limiting ourselves to PCs (and possible workarounds) isn't very forward-looking.

I think this is a key point. In my techie middle-aged college group of friends we all have home PCs right now but even here people have stopped upgrading and are basically living on borrowed time. Several people are already running on underpowered laptops with very limited screen real-estate and running Discord on a phone or tablet in parallel.

In my work environment dealing with people more in their 20's and 30's, many are making a living as creators online using just their phones and a tablet - they don't even necessarily see the need for a powerful PC as a video editing machine or a photoshop workhorse the way I do. Setting up online games with these has already involved people just not having access to a PC.

It doesn't matter how much I prefer FGU if groups of players can't actually run it.

I also see evidence of an increasing split between those who have a dedicated PC/Mac/Linux desktop and those whose computing needs are served by a combination of phone, tablet, maybe a laptop, and cloud services.

In the short term, I certainly think it is worth looking at some sort of official web-portal way of accessing FGU as a player, even if the GM still needs a powerful machine to run as host... possibly have the GM running a second machine as a player instance for the web portal to connect to. Even a spectator mode so the tablet-based players can at least see the combat tracker, chat window, maps and tokens would be a step forward, without needing to implement the full control-of-character actions tab etc. interface. (Parenthetically useful for streaming and recording sessions, too!)

Right now the best solution I have is to share screen on Discord, which isn't idea but delivers something like spectator mode.

In the medium term, something like running FGU on a cloud server and all connecting via a web interface - ForgeVTT style - does not seem impossible.

In the short term, as others have said, I think looking at implementing UI changes to be touch-interface friendly and providing alternatives to the ancient right-click menu mechanisms seem like a thing to consider as FGU's design evolves.

If Roll20 and Foundry are accessible in a meaningful way via tablet but FGU isn't, I can see that making more and more groups' decision on which VTT to use for them. Last time I checked Roll20 wasn't there yet but it was in development, and Foundry's main issue was its continuing dislike of Safari/webkit and also a somewhat non-optimised for touch interface.

That's not to say that the whole thing has to be removed from the ecosystem of a powerful host PC for the GM. Just that a implementing a meaningful subset of the functionality that can be accessed on a tablet would make a considerable difference.

Cheers, Hywel