18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[Kelrugem]

You can share an image without a pop-up on the players' side by right-click-sharing the image from the image window list (not the image itself).

Ah, nice, thanks a lot, I did not know that

So, yako, you see the presharing option with all its facettes is basically still available

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

I know if I share the image directly, it opens on the player screen.
I know if I share the file it won't open, but it's there for a curious player to click (I'm a curious player)

[Kelrugem]

I know if I share the image directly, it opens on the player screen.
I know if I share the file it won't open, but it's there for a curious player to click (I'm a curious player)

yes, but the presharing in FGC did not prevent this either

(but yes, a presharing in the sense of still hiding it in the image list would be quite neat actually; at the moment I always put global fog of war over all my maps to work against curious players Or turning on LoS/lighting should do it, too; if it is a map, then that has to be turned on nevertheless )

[Dr0W]

Ah, fair comment. I've been using MatteKure's SelectOnTurn and 5E Indictors, which do likewise.
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/353...-5E-Indicators
https://www.dmsguild.com/product/358...Select-on-Turn

Another reason I've probably got away with it is by introducing new players to the drag-and-drop-the-dice-on-the-monster's-head-on-the-map method of attacking and doing damage which doesn't require targeting at all. The people playing wizards soon learn how to target multiple creatures but the barbarians and rogues never need to

Two paid extensions that do things that perhaps should be done by the software itself . Many of my players also like to check for range before attacking, since the system we use most have it calculated automatically, so the only way is to target first. Also, I have players who play using a touchpad only. I do prefer the drag & drop approach, but it's a trouble for them. And by the end, the "I don't need to even open my sheet to attack" usually beats all that.

I agree with drOW about the WFRP ruleset for Foundry as I have it and it is very well done. I started following Foundry just to see the progress of the Warhammer ruleset. I would have preferred that the developer stuck with FG, but he decided to jump ship.

I did look at 5e and SWADE, but neither one of those on Foundry could touch FG. As was mentioned previously you had to have a bunch of modules loaded just to come close to 5e in vanilla FG. SWADE was better with the official content, but it is no where near what FG could do.

A player in my group is going to try and GM a WFRP campaign in Foundry, so we’ll see how that goes. He is complaining about the interface and is use to FG, but we’ll see how that goes.

Just lemme correct one thing: 5e does MORE than what FG does, but with free modules. There are some things you can do there that right now are only possible on FG if you purchase some extension made by the community. Things like halfling luck, automatic backstab damage, and many other automations. There are some paid extensions that implement half of those features on FG. The only real difference is that we have official support on FG, but you can import official content from DnD beyond there.

The mind boggles in 2021 that there are people who struggle with clicking a link and then running an install program, never mind creating a forum account.

But... yes I have experienced people with such challenges.

They usually also struggle with advanced concepts such as the mysterious double click and the confounding left click.

The summaries of each VTT seem to be comprehensive enough.

I'm a teacher, I've been using RPG to teach quite a lot lately. Back in the day I did use FG Classic one for that matter, and it was with a group of students that I knew they were good with technology and knew how to do things. If I want to do that with FGU I'll have to intrusively ask students not only to install a new software but also create an account on a forum that they are going to use once or twice in their lives. Not only I'm having 0 problems with that on Foundry because that's a matter of sending a link, but I've also got some friends who were resistant to playing online to actually try it. I'm starting to have friends I've player RPG with for decades, and they are getting... old. The easier I can make it for them to join a game and understand whatever is going on, the better.

[Xydonus]

Just thought I'd jump in here and add my opinion to this. Good review from Phillips, points out a lot of things that I would also feel the same about, although might be a stretch to call the D&D Beyond unofficial integration support as 'piracy' considering there have been calls on FG's forums (and previous support) for such a module.

I was never a fan of Roll20 and to me, it is a dying platform unless they start implementing changes. Regarding FoundryVTT I was at first very hesitant to use it, and this was early on when it was just starting to become popular. I've been a long-time supporter and user of FG and backed FG:Unity in the kickstarter, with matched enthusiasm that I now have for Foundry. Switching over to Foundry was surprisingly painful considering amount of $$$ I invested in FG's products and the fact that FG has been the foundation for my Warhammer game whose functional ruleset, community made, has been keeping me on FG:Classic even now.

FG:Unity to me has been the biggest factor in making me do the switch over to Foundry for all my other games, rather than Foundry's impressive features being the main draw. I have just lost patience with Unity, and comparing the two; Unity and Foundry, the choice was obvious for me. And since I've jumped over to Foundry, I just love it. Simple as. It's lacking in areas, especially automation, but the fact that I can actually feel somewhat ambitious again in prepping my games and having a strong community behind it who are continuously updating modules (unlike what Phillips said, I find the majority of 'useful' modules are being regularly updated, but some are on hold now till 9.1 due to the changes that will bring) for the system feels great, considering you can access those modules easily. The system is most certainly far more modular than FG and you can do a lot with it.

My whole group, for the first time, played D&D on it recently. Up until then I've only used Foundry with smaller groups in different games, because my main game is still Warhammer 2nd edition, and that means I'm still using FG:Classic whose support has now ended sadly, so the clock is ticking with regards to that. But my group loved the system, and it has already converted two GM's in my group over to it, one of them who is also a FG user, just from that one game they've had. It's just very clean to use. Players love the interface it seems, and all the fancy immersive features are just cherries on top.

I honestly wish I wasn't dropping FG in its entirety because I know I will once I end up either switching to 4th Edition WFRP or playing 2nd Ed on Foundry. Competition is good and I hope it is good enough to make me look at FG again in the future and maybe get tempted to switch back. Right now I can't see that happening anytime soon.

There's definitely a problem with the direction of FG:Unity development if someone like me who has in the past recommended FG to others (two GM's bought Ultimate licenses based on my recommendations) and invested a considerable amount of $$$ into a program can be swayed by a $60 VTT program that only contains a tiny percentage of the automation features of FG. Smiteworks would do well to open their eyes I feel and not ignore people like myself or others who have developed disappointment with the direction of FG:Unity.

[dmbrown]

Just lemme correct one thing: 5e does MORE than what FG does, but with free modules. There are some things you can do there that right now are only possible on FG if you purchase some extension made by the community. Things like halfling luck, automatic backstab damage, and many other automations. There are some paid extensions that implement half of those features on FG. The only real difference is that we have official support on FG, but you can import official content from DnD beyond there.

I imagine you have put more time into running 5e on Foundry than I have, so you might know more about what is possible, but from what I've seen it wasn't close to FG without dozens of modules. I've wondered and I've seen others ask elsewhere what modules were necessary to get Foundry up to par with FG, but no one has gone through and listed them though I know of some of them.

The large complex modules, CUB, Midi-QL, DAE SRD and I think there were others help to come close to vanilla FG, but are volunteer modules, so what if they're abandoned? Now you have half the functionally of what FG gives you gone. Not only that but you have to keep track of the versions of these modules and if they're compatible with each other and the version of Foundry that you're running.

I think with Foundry as you mentioned it comes down to the ruleset. That is why I was agreeing with you on WFRP as it appears that Moo Man has gone and integrated a lot of what various modules did right into the ruleset and it is very well automated. I've kept my on on Foundry and will continue to do so and maybe their 5e ruleset will get better. I hope Foundry and SmiteWorks keep looking at what the other is doing and try to improve on their product as that is what is best for the consumer. In the end a group should use what they feel is best for their game. For me I have a large investment in FG for 5e and SWADE, so for now that is what my group is staying with, but we will use Foundry for WFRP and I am sure there are many groups that have a similar setup for various systems.

[MrDDT]

Two paid extensions that do things that perhaps should be done by the software itself . Many of my players also like to check for range before attacking, since the system we use most have it calculated automatically, so the only way is to target first. Also, I have players who play using a touchpad only. I do prefer the drag & drop approach, but it's a trouble for them. And by the end, the "I don't need to even open my sheet to attack" usually beats all that.



Just lemme correct one thing: 5e does MORE than what FG does, but with free modules. There are some things you can do there that right now are only possible on FG if you purchase some extension made by the community. Things like halfling luck, automatic backstab damage, and many other automations. There are some paid extensions that implement half of those features on FG. The only real difference is that we have official support on FG, but you can import official content from DnD beyond there.

There are other EXTs (free) that auto target your token when it's your turn.

Some of the stuff you are talking about with halfling luck and automatic backstab (I think you mean sneak attack) etc can be done with free exts. Some just require more work or need another step to do some of the stuff.
Also they are not perfect. You have to understand that like the auto sneak attack. That should NOT be coded in FGU basic because it forces the player to do sneak attacks on their first turn (unless you go in and turn it off). Some DMs like the choice of it the other way because that's how mostly it's used but the rules are rules. FGU should no FORCE a choice.

Importing content from D&D Beyond is also a double edged problem 1) It might not be there always. 2) You would also need to own that content on D&D Beyond. 3) D&D Beyond servers need to be online.
You cause other issues that I'm not even listing because they are fringe but still problems.

Trust me I'm not a Fanboi of FGU however, give credit to what they are doing and options they have like IMO the first poster did.

[Dr0W]

yes, but the presharing in FGC did not prevent this either

(but yes, a presharing in the sense of still hiding it in the image list would be quite neat actually; at the moment I always put global fog of war over all my maps to work against curious players Or turning on LoS/lighting should do it, too; if it is a map, then that has to be turned on nevertheless )

Actually it did. A looong time ago it did, perhaps over 10 years ago, but then it got changed.

There are other EXTs (free) that auto target your token when it's your turn.

Some of the stuff you are talking about with halfling luck and automatic backstab (I think you mean sneak attack) etc can be done with free exts. Some just require more work or need another step to do some of the stuff.
Also they are not perfect. You have to understand that like the auto sneak attack. That should NOT be coded in FGU basic because it forces the player to do sneak attacks on their first turn (unless you go in and turn it off). Some DMs like the choice of it the other way because that's how mostly it's used but the rules are rules. FGU should no FORCE a choice.

Importing content from D&D Beyond is also a double edged problem 1) It might not be there always. 2) You would also need to own that content on D&D Beyond. 3) D&D Beyond servers need to be online.
You cause other issues that I'm not even listing because they are fringe but still problems.

Trust me I'm not a Fanboi of FGU however, give credit to what they are doing and options they have like IMO the first poster did.

By no means I'm saying its use should be enforced, but if it's there you can simply turn on or off at will. It's better to have the option of something being automated and have the option to toggle it, than not having it at all. That's how it is on Foundry.
If I want Halfling luck working automatically I should either: Have and old EXT from a time that people gave those for free, or have to purchase a new one. It's better to have something automated and being able to turn it off if you don't like it, than not having it

Believe me, I've looked for extensions that did those things, and most of them were either abandoned or removed. The ones up to date are the ones people are charging money.

[Zarestia]

I got logged out while writing an answer

... although might be a stretch to call the D&D Beyond unofficial integration support as 'piracy' considering there have been calls on FG's forums (and previous support) for such a module.

I've never seen a post in the last 3 years here calling for a Patreon-gated D&D Beyond importer. The only feasible solution would be an agreement between Smiteworks and Fandom (probably WotC has also a say in this) like the Paizo PDF discount and snyc.
The D&D Beyond (and R20 + FG) importers are at least grey-area if not straight illegal. One can only speculate if IP owners go after such things. Two of the bigger RPG and 5E online sharing sites went down in the last few months, just saying ...

Smiteworks would do well to open their eyes I feel and not ignore people like myself or others who have developed disappointment with the direction of FG:Unity.

I haven't read one argument or solution in your post, might be the reason why you are "getting ignored".

The only real difference is that we have official support on FG, but you can import official content from DnD beyond there.

Like i wrote earlier, Patreon-gated importer which is atleast grey area.

Now to my personal experiences with the systems.

Roll20:
Good
- easy to get into
- good for dual monitor setup
- always online (if it was not laggy or offline)
- community search for strangers
Bad
- stale
- most expensive of the big three after 1-1.5 years
- wiki a total mess
- was sadly lagging nearly every evening we played
- only subscription-based
- macros and the like were a total mess, old, no documentation, non-functional
- no SRD, nearly no automation, cumbersome play having to manage everything by hand (this was D&D 3.5e)

Foundry:
Good
- modern technology, rather easy to mod
- big community and therefore many rulesets and modules
- rather easy for atleast players to get into
- cheapest basline of the big three

Bad
- fragmentation (1100 modules listed on the mainpage, about 800 of them not listed as compatible with the newest Foundry version from 19 days ago. Do they work? I don't know, maybe, probably, maybe not.)
- The product roadmap gets semi-decided and voted on by the patreon supporters
- Limited demo possibilities (only as player and mostly only D&D 5e). Can't really test the software without buying it.
- the evangelizing part of the community (take a look into the pf2e subreddit for example)
- no official D&D 5e product support (D&D 5e is by far the most played TTRPG)

Fantasy Grounds Unity:
Good
- you can demo everyhting on a free account besides hosting
- good and fast official support (even by devs)
- My GM time (5e, 3.5e & PF2e) has been mostly chill, before and in the session. I can concentrate on the adventure and not the system.
- Combat Tracker & Party Sheet
- Campaign management
- Fantasy Grounds Academy (former College)
- Work gone into the new wiki and newsletter
- Forge

Bad
- No official PaizoCon 2021 participation (besides the great people from FGA)
- Some things which were shown years ago still not in the program (I think multi-colored and -skinned dice were shown by Doug in a Facebook post in 2016)
- Some "weird" things (right-click menu, the assets bag needs some QoL [handling, performance and unloading things you don't need or want], loading performance hiccups [ah, the old single-thread discussion])
- More information about new features in updates (VISONMAX & VISIONMOD I think were offenders, put them in the wiki or a short video, would help immensely)
- More transperancy on what's being updated (was already discussed and pointed out in past)
- It comes across like the idea informer doesn't get looked at (I know this is probably not the truth, it just appears like that)

All in all, everyhting product has it's pros and cons.
If you just got into TTRPG and VTT, I suggest to take a look into R20. It is rather beginner-friendly.
If you want many mods, rulesets and fiddle with maybe contradictions between them, I suggest to take a look into Foundry.
If you don't have a problem with paying money for modules (read books) and don't want to concern youself with anyhting but playing an adventure with friends or strangers, I suggest to take a look at Fantasy Grounds Unity.

[MrDDT]

Actually it did. A looong time ago it did, perhaps over 10 years ago, but then it got changed.




By no means I'm saying its use should be enforced, but if it's there you can simply turn on or off at will. It's better to have the option of something being automated and have the option to toggle it, than not having it at all. That's how it is on Foundry.
If I want Halfling luck working automatically I should either: Have and old EXT from a time that people gave those for free, or have to purchase a new one. It's better to have something automated and being able to turn it off if you don't like it, than not having it

Believe me, I've looked for extensions that did those things, and most of them were either abandoned or removed. The ones up to date are the ones people are charging money.

I don't want to derail the thread even more however, I do not think that's a good standard of putting items into the game or not as a function. Think of all the options people can or can't have at their table with choices and rules. Now see how many settings people would have to go through for obscure functions of these options.

Example would be like 5E Barbs have the option to rage. What if you made them rage every time as an effect on the first turn of combat. Sure you can make it an option to turn it off, but there is no rule that says it should happen the first turn of combat and it is 100% choice of the player (just as sneak attack is) if they want to do sneak attack or not. You say "well we should have option to turn it off" why would you put an option for something when there is no standard or rule for it?
I think it's much better to have it the other way as new players would be confused. In fact I think it should be the other way even if it were an option to be turned off and maybe an option to turn on. However, still there is no rule for sneak attack at all to be done every attack on your first attack. So why would a game system put this in as an option at all? I can see having it as an option that you can click on before doing your attack. (Which they have the code for it) I just don't see it as an option to force it even with an on off option as there is no rule at all for this.