18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[Weissrolf]

That is nice anectodal evidence, here is ours:

- One player could not create an account, the system wouldn't let him use what he tried. So in the end he created an account akin to something like "sdfisudsjvsdoifb", that worked. No need to create accounts with Foundry.

- One player could not install the client, the installer refused to download further data. Turns out that his carrier's use of DSlite (IPv4 over IPv6) caused the Windows default MTU size of 1500 to be too large. So as quick workaround he used his mobile phone connection for the download and as long term solution I showed him how to lower the MTU size used by Windows (via command shell). No need to install client software with Foundry.

- One of my players' computer cannot meet the minimum spec requirements of FGU, especially concerning memory. As a result he stopped using Chrome for Discord chat and now runs Discord on his phone to save memory on the PC. FGU's large memory requirements makes using potato computers harder. Foundry/Chrome seems to need (much) less memory compared to FGU.

- One of my players (second group using Foundry) was not able to use his desktop PC for the very first session. So he connected to Foundry via Firepad tablet instead, with me installing a module for easier finger-tap controls. This is not possible with FGU.

- At my summer vacation location we have an abysmally bad internet connection. Running the FGU server on my laptop over that connection does not work, because any connection loss leads to all players being thrown out. Instead I run the server on my home desktop PC and have everyone connect to that. But because FGU does not allow a GM to remotely connect to the server (as GM) I have to use a remote control software instead, which means that all graphic output of my desktop PC has to be transferred over the bad internet connection (on top of voice chat). With the web based solution I can just connect to the server as GM via browser (plus local cache) and thus decrease bandwidth demands to a minimum.

[Jiminimonka]

I’m just not understanding the push for web based access to FGU interface. It just works for me. I DM on a reasonably priced gaming laptop. My player use low power old laptops and or desktops and even a Mac. With the use of /VSYNC and /imagequality they all work without issues.

The only thing I have a wish for is screen real estate. Using different sized second screen it’s impossible to stretch across screens. I would say if a second screen was supported in the FGU engine then these issues would be addressed.

The thing with FGU is that is just works.

Yep. Unfortunately Carl Sagans fears about humanity have come true and this Installing software thing is hard for some people.

[TheoGeek]

I’m just not understanding the push for web based access to FGU interface.

Personally, I'd LOVE a way to access the "books" I've purchased from my phone so I can read them when I don't have my computer.

I have no interest in actually running a session that way though, except for possibly letting players interact with their characters that way, but even then, they all have a PC available to them so that's not as important. I could see a case where you have a TV with the map on it and each player has their character sheet on their phone to interact with (attack rolls, saving throws, leveling up, casting spells, etc.), but that would have to be done really well to make the experience smooth.

[HywelPhillips]

I think everybody's use cases and experiences are different.

For my groups, two players have performance issues with FGU on old hardware, but it seems to be at least as much Discord and video conferencing as it is FGU. Offloading Discord onto another device helps a lot.

Roll20 rarely stresses the fans on my machine much, and I don't seem to experience too many performance issues with players in other games either.

Foundry frequently has the fans on my iMac Pro spinning up to full speed even though I'm not at unreasonable quality settings. I think that's mostly down to being on a Retina screen and there simply being a lot of pixels to draw. FGU on my machine seems more demanding on CPU (which seems to be bounded by a single processor speed a lot by the look of the CPU monitor) whereas Foundry hammers the GPU a bit more. Broadly speaking I'd say FGU's performance is a bit better on my machine than Foundry, but FGU with "hiccups" where FGU locks or stutters or spinny-beach-balls for a few seconds. Foundry rarely does that, but does spin up the fans to the max. Probably I can fine tune both of these programs with quality settings but both work tolerably well for me.

I'm currently involved in setting up a multi-GM multi-player campaign which is going to use Foundry of necessity because the game system we're playing is on Foundry but not yet on FG, and the ability to run multi-GMs in a single game is helpful. However, we've already had some of the dreaded port forwarding issues that FGU fixed entirely. So swings and roundabouts. (We've avoided port forwarding by using cloud hosting for our planned Foundry games now, but that comes with subscription fees and its own annoyances).


Mobile accessibility is an interesting one. As someone who is Apple-based (for sound reasons in my actual business), Foundry no more accessible on mobile for me than FGU is. Roll20 doesn't work on an iPad either. Safari/Webkit isn't supported, so try to access a Foundry game on my iPad and it fails to display anything but a grey screen with the Foundry logo on it. Roll20 has an app in development I think but when I tried it, it was pretty painful. D&D Beyond actually has the best all-mobile solution right now as far as I can see.

Maybe these programs work better in the Android/Google ecosphere?

I can see the usefulness of mobile access for basic tasks - reading modules for GMs, accessing character sheets and dice rolling for players. I'm not 100% convinced yet that actually playing a game on an iPad is viable from the screen real estate point of view, let alone on a phone, but I can certainly see the utility of being able to connect, see the chat window and access/roll from your character sheet on those platforms. I guess if that's very important to you, it's a killer selling point for the browser-based VTTs. IF the software actually works on your mobile platform at all.

The killer selling point for the installable software VTTs is harder to point to. I think if SmiteWorks are able to divorce the server, GM client and player clients somewhat to allow easier cloud hosting and offline module reading or lightweight character-sheet-and-rolls client for mobile, it sounds like there are people who will use it.

I still prefer FGU's GM support tools. Game prep is a lot less well-organised and less fun for me in Foundry than in FGU. Other people will have different feelings on that but I *really* miss features like parcels, encounters, the combat tracker and so on when I don't have them, even for systems which are less mechanically complex than 5E. The ability to rename a bunch of identical NPCs in the encounter with very little fuss is less time-intensive than Foundry's system of tokens and double clicking each to change names by hand, for example. I don't want to have to supplement basic functionality like that with modules, because my experience with Foundry continues to be that modules break ALL THE TIME.

I think the good thing is that we seem to be settling down to three main VTT choices, and they all have strengths and weaknesses, but all three of them can be used to run many or most game systems remotely and have fun.

I even played in a Tabletop Simulator game this week, which was fun too! Personally I'm trying to simulate immersion in the game world rather than immersion in the virtual space around a tabletop with minis and snacks, but it was a laugh to play that way and I can see the appeal there, too.

Cheers, Hywel.

[celestian]

Mobile accessibility is an interesting one. As someone who is Apple-based (for sound reasons in my actual business), Foundry no more accessible on mobile for me than FGU is. Roll20 doesn't work on an iPad either. Safari/Webkit isn't supported, so try to access a Foundry game on my iPad and it fails to display anything but a grey screen with the Foundry logo on it. R

I dont use mobile or a mac so perhaps I am a bit detached but as I understood it you could access Foundry (and r20?) through chrome (or firefox) mobiles?

[MostTornBrain]

I dont use mobile or a mac so perhaps I am a bit detached but as I understood it you could access Foundry (and r20?) through chrome (or firefox) mobiles?

I've tried both Chrome and Firefox on my iPad earlier today for Roll20 (I use Roll20 regularly via my Mac) and the map view never loads - it just endlessly cycles the loading messages. Also, given a touch screen, there is no obvious way to right click, so even the parts of the UI that do load in the browser, you cannot perform simple functions like trying to resize a pop up window (such as the character sheet), trying to scroll certain UI elements is extremely hit or miss, and the whole experience is pretty much unusable except maybe for viewing the chat messages or reading some content outside of an actual game session.

I haven't tried Foundry on my iPad - I have no active games using it. My past two attempts to learn to use Foundry were extremely painful working through their online tutorial. Not sure if it was internet bandwidth issues or my Macbook Pro, but it was extremely laggy and I shelved the thought of trying Foundry for any actual gameplay based on that recent experience and a similar one about 6 to 9 months prior.

Cheers,
Brian

[Sulimo]

I dont use mobile or a mac so perhaps I am a bit detached but as I understood it you could access Foundry (and r20?) through chrome (or firefox) mobiles?

The issue HywelPhillips is likely running into here, is that on iOS/iPadOS all browsers use the WebKit Engine regardless of the actual browser. So Chrome, Firefox, and others are all forced to use the WebKit engine, so this basically means that all browsers for iOS/iPadOS are really nothing more than skins for Safari/WebKit.

[celestian]

The issue HywelPhillips is likely running into here, is that on iOS/iPadOS all browsers use the WebKit Engine regardless of the actual browser. So Chrome, Firefox, and others are all forced to use the WebKit engine, so this basically means that all browsers for iOS/iPadOS are really nothing more than skins for Safari/WebKit.

That would explain why Foundry isnt officially supported on mobile devices then

[HywelPhillips]

I dont use mobile or a mac so perhaps I am a bit detached but as I understood it you could access Foundry (and r20?) through chrome (or firefox) mobiles?

You can't, because Apple mandates any web browser on iOS has to use WebKit (for security, they claim). The net result of which is that Chrome and Firefox are using the Apple/Safari libraries behind the scenes, and therefore also do not work with either Roll20 or Foundry.

(Sorry missed that someone had already posted this).

Anyway, the net result is that the promise of browser-based VTTs that they will run on anything is illusory at the present time. They may work on other mobile platforms, but we've just discovered today that Foundry on Forge-VTT actually doesn't work on Safari or Firefox for the Mac. You need to use Chrome. So actually you're just as tied to installing software as you are for Fantasy Grounds, and it doesn't run on Apple mobile either.

Cheers, Hywel

[celestian]

You can't, because Apple mandates any web browser on iOS has to use WebKit (for security, they claim). The net result of which is that Chrome and Firefox are using the Apple/Safari libraries behind the scenes, and therefore also do not work with either Roll20 or Foundry.

(Sorry missed that someone had already posted this).

Anyway, the net result is that the promise of browser-based VTTs that they will run on anything is illusory at the present time. They may work on other mobile platforms, but we've just discovered today that Foundry on Forge-VTT actually doesn't work on Safari or Firefox for the Mac. You need to use Chrome. So actually you're just as tied to installing software as you are for Fantasy Grounds, and it doesn't run on Apple mobile either.

Cheers, Hywel

I presume android devices have no such limits and work insofar as a mobile device can?