18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[similarly]

That concern is very system specific, mostly only concerning DnD. And it's more a problem of DnD's license than a problem of VTTs. Even without VTTs I prefer digital content to be available at a one-time fee and being usable for our private sessions in whatever form we like. Having to pay a subscription is the next step, but then I absolutely expect the content to be usable for private sessions in any form we like (including VTT usage).

For Pathfinder 2 we can automatically import PDF content, of which copying is explicitly allowed by Paizo. For other systems it needs to be done manually, like my Starfinder example, where I exported the map image from PDF, loaded it into Foundry and then build walls and lights on top of it (which then can be shared with others without the image file). For systems like Starfinder this means more work for GMs, though, as the VTT ready content is not available for buying and sharing of finished scenes within the community seems rather scarce.

There are systems like Warhammer or The Dark Eye where original publishers are offering Foundry content themselves.

This is the big plus of Fantasy Grounds (and I supposed Roll20), that you can buy content readymade to start playing right away. Less of a problem for Pathfinder 2 specifically, but more of a problem for all other systems.

It's content-specific only so far as Paizo is concerned. FGU has content from a lot of systems. I've bought D&D, Alien and Call of Cthulhu. Foundry has modules with system rules, which, from what I understand, is fine as long as it doesn't contain any non-OGL content, such as spells, equipment, words, etc. Foundry's official position is to publicly offer ONLY these modules, but discussions of Foundry I've read on forums, reddit etc, I see a lot of wink-wink-nudge-nudge attitude towards copyrighted material, and I'm not comfortable with that. A lot of these game companies are, in fact, very small companies with limited budgets, and I think they deserve every penny I can pay for their products.

[celestian]

Foundry's official position is to publicly offer ONLY these modules, but discussions of Foundry I've read on forums, reddit etc, I see a lot of wink-wink-nudge-nudge attitude towards copyrighted material, and I'm not comfortable with that.

Not from any official sources I'll wager. You can't hold the company liable for what people do on their own. The same type of folks do seedy things with FG.

[similarly]

Not from any official sources I'll wager. You can't hold the company liable for what people do on their own. The same type of folks do seedy things with FG.

All it would take to discourage a lot of it would be for the the devs to secure licensing agreements and then openly condemn seedy practices ... as Smiteworks has done.

[Weissrolf]

And as Foundry system developers are doing, at least for Pathfinder 2 and Starfinder. DnD 5E is developed by the Foundry developers themself, though.

[Valyar]

PF2 system is a blast. For "flagship system", 5e is quite bland on Foundry, very disappointing. Requires too much modules to be playable and with good immersion factor.

[celestian]

All it would take to discourage a lot of it would be for the the devs to secure licensing agreements and then openly condemn seedy practices ... as Smiteworks has done.

They've already done the first and getting a license with WoTC/Hasbro isn't as simple as wanting it as I am sure you are aware.

[Jiminimonka]

So Foundry has a way to go before it's even close to FG in anyway... but it has shiny graphics and players don't need to install software because most OS come with a browser installed (and the OS is usually installed already when they buy the computer too, eliminating another hurdle).

[Weissrolf]

Do you mean Foundry or do you mean the 5E system?

[Valyar]

So Foundry has a way to go before it's even close to FG in anyway... but it has shiny graphics and players don't need to install software because most OS come with a browser installed (and the OS is usually installed already when they buy the computer too, eliminating another hurdle).

What do you think they are lacking at the moment?

[Weissrolf]

For comparison sake, let's go through the list:

So if you have the ability to have LOS/lighting, token visibility, real time map editing during game

Absolutely.

coding to make a wide range of data (modules) or change the core ruleset behavior (or make a ruleset) with extensions and ruleset coding

Even more so than in FGU, because modules in Foundry can change fundamental properties of the system. There was a module that changed the whole lighting system to be faster and better, part of which was then incorporated into the Foundry core in v9. And there are modules that improve the toolset for map editing (walls, lights, etc).

plus the bling factor (which means nothing to me as I just want the best tool for making my life simple running the game as a DM

You can create better looking and more useful maps in Foundry, because lights and walls offer more options, flexibility and bling.

I don't care about the look/feel of the UI as long as it does the job)

Maybe not for ourselves as GMs, but for our players we should. Even more so if the UI gets in the way of players mastering the tools you aim to use with FGU and then the work falls back on the GM again. My players only get into contact with FGU every 2 weeks for 4 hours and then they also have to remember the adventure content and game system mechanics (mostly PF2).

Furthermore we all just keep staring at a mostly static screen. And while the GM is nearly 100% busy most of the players are just waiting for their turn to happen. A boring, unwieldy and then impractical (when the turn comes) UI only leads to players being less immersed and reading websites, watching videos or doing other things away from the game.

and the ability give all this to those that play in your game for free (you still have to pay a pretty penny as host)...

Foundry is $50 (+VAT), Fantasy Grounds Ultimate is $149. Discounts on FGU are larger when they happen (the whole discounts being on and off is a nuisance and kicks people in the hurts that happen to not buy during the many, many, maaany discount times). Most systems on Foundry don't cost additional money, but then you also cannot buy much adventure content to begin with and have to enter it yourself. PF2 is an exception where on Foundry you even get more content for less money than on FG.

Then I don't see why they don't advertise this more in the other apps. For sure they did not show me that when I looked to the extent I wanted (or even as I look now at games broadcast using these apps - maybe I'm just not looking in the right places).

Foundry is marketed as a solution for developers and many people on the Discord are part of that crowd. Most non-developer users seem to prefer hanging on Reddit, which also makes it easier to find answers to questions already asked a thousand times (Google works there for instance).

But right now - I have my players only see things on their clients that are visible LOS in the map (overrode CT [Combat Tracker in raw FGU] to not show them anything of a different faction and/or of a different combat group).

Work in Foundry, even more so in that tokens on the map don't have to originate from the CT. So you can populate your map and still have the CT clean. The CT is less powerful in Foundry and usually only is relevant during combat. Because of the CT being less functional and overall less important in Foundry compared to FGU most people do install the "Token Action HUD" for quick access of character actions/options without having to use character sheets. That being said, FGU's CT is more functional for GMs than players and that HUD module mostly replaces the Action tab in FGU.

I can treat the control of PC/NPCs for my players (clients) as the same as the host would have where they fully control the NPC

Same in Foundry if you give ownership of a (N)PC to any player.

and can use the CT to trigger their combat features just like in host CT

The CT is the same for players and GM except for the turn controls, which means it is equally minimal for both and offers much less functionality than FGU's CT.

(my biggest beef with 5E ruleset is NPC sheets are so different form PCs FYI).

I have not looked at 5E, so I don't know how NPC sheets look compared to PC ones. In PF2 NPC stats are very different from PC stats, so it makes sense that there are differences.

I can drop loot out of the PC/NPC when they are dead without doing anything and players can pick it up without me as DM doing anything if I want to allow it

Looting directly out of corpses is in the PF2 system core on Foundry, but other systems likely need a module for that.

(plus they get marked in map and CT with token showing they are dead or dying).

At least in the PF2 system GM can mark combatants as defeated in the CT, which then also shows on the map. No idea about 5E. Automatic marking likely is up to either systems or modules to implement (especially with how different systems have different forms of defeat/death).

I can implement many things in 5E that FGU does not support simply, like generic action conflicting die rolls, application of range rules, etc. I can make any polymorph type of transformation (wild shape, polymorph, animal shapes, etc.) a simple thing that requires no effort on my or my players to make it happen or change back - following the existing 5E rules for what was done or not (homebrew).

Since you can basically reprogram every system and even the Foundry core you can do all that and more. How easy or hard this is going to be is another question that I am not qualified to answer.

All I did myself was to patch up a module to change token elevation via shortcuts from code snippets thrown at me on the Discord. I had to learn Javascript + tools + some Foundry API for that, which took me about a week of intense pursuit (with GIT being the worst part).

I can preset up as session where all the encounters I expect my players to run into (or ones that I wish to be permanent) as combat groups pre placed on the map

Which is/was an extension specifically limited to 5E in FGU. There are even two extensions offering this, but both don't work for my PF2 group, because the CT is so different to the 5E CT implementation.

but separately controlled for visibility in CT (part of that earlier thing I mentioned where I like to disassociate the map visibility from what is visible in CT I mentioned earlier).

In Foundry the CT stays empty until the GM switches selected tokens to be in combat which then puts them on the CT. You can select tokens via selection rectangle for that, but also have to select player tokens to make them take part in combat (CT). There are no predefined groups, unless there may be a module for that (haven't looked yet).

I can drop persistent containers (parcels) on the map that the players can interact with - or not interact with without unlocking.

Again, depending on the specific system implementation or modules being installed.

I can setup a session where I, as DM, literally have to do nothing as the players are all controlling all the PCs and NPCs (I have one or more players running the opposing NPCs) on the map. I just concentrate on the flow of presentation of the game experience. No tracking of rolls - no having to run NPCs myself - just run the game. Or the odd NPC when its required

Again, depending on ownership of said NPCs. If players owns a token then they can control every aspect of it.

Gist is - none of what I just mentioned is in FGU 5E raw. I made those things because I wanted them.

If you are telling me foundry and roll20 has that power to do these things? Great. Glad to hear it.

I am, now, an expert in this one. So here I'll stay My previous post is just why I like FGU and why I think others like the more simple world of the other apps. If you say they are equally rich in complexity that I can modify to my desires - I'll believe you - as I am by no means an expert in those.[/QUOTE]