18 months on : FG vs. Roll20 vs Foundry

[LordEntrails]

Well, I just got a bad rep from a forum regular, so opinions on that seem to differ.

Yeah, that was me, and it was a mistake. Sorry Weissrolf.

I just Rep'd Weissrolf to offset that for you.

[Jiminimonka]

Thanks. Lord Entrails.

[Weissrolf]

I think people don't like Fantasy Grounds because of the "bling" factor. Other apps have more flash and simplicity with basic simple things.

Both of which are important, because "flash" is what you look at for hours while sitting alone in front of a screen and "simplicity" lowers the bar to get things rolling.

However, FGU is the only app I use to run my campaigns. I like it because I can be ultimately lazy in how I run the game.

This is the strongest point in favor of FGU, at least when you throw money at it to buy ready-made content.

I can actually spend time crafting the experience rather than constantly managing every little roll with all that can effect those rolls.

This is somewhat debatable. Not all automation is equal in any of these VTTs, but mostly depending on which system you play. And even with all its automation I often find having to handhold my players to accomplish mechanical tasks in FGU, because of the missing "simplicity" and the mechanics often taking a front-seat.

I like the fact the LOS/Lighting is completely flexible (albeit new and still under development) and I can design/add/change things on the fly as I need them on the map during actual game play.

Which at least Foundry offers, too, no idea about Roll20. And since Foundry's lighting and walls are more powerful one could argue that it offer even more flexibility. Foundry especially offers light cones and copy & paste of light sources. It does not offer changing multiple lights at once, though, which FGU does. Theoretically you could emulate copy & paste via layer duplication in FGU, but merging layers doesn't seem to be offered (and UNDO of light layers fails, while undo of wall layers works).

You cannot do this kind of lighting in FGU:

I like my players can play for free with no costs - as host I've bought the ultimate license and all the books.

Same for Foundry, one-time purchase for the GM, no costs for the players. Not even the need to create an account or install software. This is the lowest possible hurdle for players.

I ESPECIALLY like that anything annoys me in the app I can override by writing my own extensions (note: EXTENSIONS = RISK) to make it do what I want to do in my games. Nothing has this kind of flexibility or power.

Again, same for Foundry. And since it uses Javascript and offers direct connection to other developers in real-time it is even easier to start writing your own extensions. I published an extension for Foundry (Token Elevator) in short time, because it was easier and more motivating to get there compared to FGU's Lua 5.1.

Granted, I don't do DATA and pretty much bought the FGU modules for PHB, MM, and DMG and supplemental data from DMsG to make my life even lazier with extensions.

And this is where systems matter. Can you even buy any kind of digital image/PDF maps for original 5E adventures outside of FGU or Roll20? This seems more a limitation of the DnD license than a limitation of each VTT system, though.

With PF2 in Foundry it is as easy as importing the adventure PDF file via PDF Importer module (only paying for the Paizo PDF). Both FGU and the PDF importer suffer from the walls not always been drawn properly. This is most problematic when wall lines are put exactly on the outer edge of map walls, so all players get to see is blackness instead of the wall texture, often also not revealing doors properly. And for some reason these pre-made maps always use sight-blocking walls at the outer edges of maps, instead of using see-through walls that allow players to see the map graphics around caves/ships/extra-dimensional pockets that add to the mood of a map.

With Foundry Starfinder GMs have to export the map images from the PDFs manually and then draw their own walls and lights. Theoretically only one person in the world would have to do that and then could share their JSON export file, so anyone with the same PDF based map can use the same walls and lights (regardless of resolution). Practically there is no place where these are shared even though a Discord thread was started lately and would be minimal work do export and upload them.

Encounters outside the Alien Archives need to be imported via Statblock Importer module (works well) or manually entered. But FGU offers the additional option to throw money at the problem and get ready-made maps and encounters from their shop. I also expect FGU's implementation to have hit vs. AC automation, which the Foundry implementation of SF does not (yet) offer.

So in a nutshell, people don't like FGU because of the learning curve and overhead in mastering it.

On top of the necessity to successfully create an account and install the software. The software also is more restricting to use (no multi-window option for multiple screens), harder to configure (obscure chat commands to change graphic settings) and quickly disabling problematic extensions or reloading the session because of performance problems takes much longer.

Was not easy to get to that point. And if you don't want that level of power and control - stick to the simple apps. In the end, the game is what you and your players make of it. These "apps" are just tools and can only provide as good an experience as the people that are running them.

What kind of power are you missing from Foundry then? It's much more extensible via modules than FGU is via extensions and even systems can be modified by users, too (not so in FGU for anything bought via shop). So one could argue that it is even more powerful for a uses who like to take that kind of control.

[SilentRuin]

As I don't use Foundry or Roll20 - but investigated them both before I went with Fantasy Grounds - I'd have to state that I only have a feel of them from videos I've watched of games using them.

So if you have the ability to have LOS/lighting, token visibility, real time map editing during game, coding to make a wide range of data (modules) or change the core ruleset behavior (or make a ruleset) with extensions and ruleset coding, plus the bling factor (which means nothing to me as I just want the best tool for making my life simple running the game as a DM - I don't care about the look/feel of the UI as long as it does the job) and the ability give all this to those that play in your game for free (you still have to pay a pretty penny as host)...

Then I don't see why they don't advertise this more in the other apps. For sure they did not show me that when I looked to the extent I wanted (or even as I look now at games broadcast using these apps - maybe I'm just not looking in the right places).

But right now - I have my players only see things on their clients that are visible LOS in the map (overrode CT [Combat Tracker in raw FGU] to not show them anything of a different faction and/or of a different combat group). I can treat the control of PC/NPCs for my players (clients) as the same as the host would have where they fully control the NPC and can use the CT to trigger their combat features just like in host CT (my biggest beef with 5E ruleset is NPC sheets are so different form PCs FYI). I can drop loot out of the PC/NPC when they are dead without doing anything and players can pick it up without me as DM doing anything if I want to allow it (plus they get marked in map and CT with token showing they are dead or dying). I can implement many things in 5E that FGU does not support simply, like generic action conflicting die rolls, application of range rules, etc. I can make any polymorph type of transformation (wild shape, polymorph, animal shapes, etc.) a simple thing that requires no effort on my or my players to make it happen or change back - following the existing 5E rules for what was done or not (homebrew). I can preset up as session where all the encounters I expect my players to run into (or ones that I wish to be permanent) as combat groups pre placed on the map but separately controlled for visibility in CT (part of that earlier thing I mentioned where I like to disassociate the map visibility from what is visible in CT I mentioned earlier). I can drop persistent containers (parcels) on the map that the players can interact with - or not interact with without unlocking.

I can setup a session where I, as DM, literally have to do nothing as the players are all controlling all the PCs and NPCs (I have one or more players running the opposing NPCs) on the map. I just concentrate on the flow of presentation of the game experience. No tracking of rolls - no having to run NPCs myself - just run the game. Or the odd NPC when its required

Gist is - none of what I just mentioned is in FGU 5E raw. I made those things because I wanted them.

If you are telling me foundry and roll20 has that power to do these things? Great. Glad to hear it.

I am, now, an expert in this one. So here I'll stay My previous post is just why I like FGU and why I think others like the more simple world of the other apps. If you say they are equally rich in complexity that I can modify to my desires - I'll believe you - as I am by no means an expert in those.

[Springroll]

I posted earlier in this thread that Foundry is the least GM friendly of the three VTT's mentioned and I stand by that statement. I've tried so many times to get into Foundry because there's quite a vocal community that raises Foundry as the best VTT there is, and for me it's just to fiddly, to many moving parts, jumping through hoops just to make a grid work for you or change from the selection tool to a measuring tool. I'm sure that if you are used to the program all that becomes second nature but for me it's just not intuitive. I'd rather use Roll20 than Foundry and I only use Roll20 when I feel that the version available on Fantasy Grounds is lacking or if it's a niche game and it would be impossible to find players here.

But at the end of the day we are spoilt for choice and that is a good thing.

[Weissrolf]

Foundry is marketed as "developer-friendly" platform, not as player-friendly! Players are only ever mentioned as being able to connect to "you" via browser and for free, written in third person as some kind of inevitable attachment to developer customers.

Guilty as charged.

That being said, "change from the selection tool to a measuring tool" seems like an odd example, because it is easily possible to switch via both always available buttons and ctrl+drag combination (for distance, not area templates). There are no modifier keys for easily placing area/spell templates (instead of using buttons), though, so that would need a module/extension to make possible.

[Weissrolf]

Foundry is marketed as "developer-friendly" platform, not as player-friendly! Players are only ever mentioned as being able to connect to "you" via browser and for free, written in third person as some kind of inevitable attachment to developer customers.

Guilty as charged.

That being said, "change from the selection tool to a measuring tool" seems like an odd example, because it is easily possible to switch via always available buttons and ctrl+drag combination (for distance, not area templates). There are no modifier keys for easily placing area/spell templates (instead of using buttons), though, so that would need a module/extension to make possible.

[YAKO SOMEDAKY]

My conception of the 3 platforms:
Roll20 if you are lazy, leave things to the last minute and don't want to pay to have something, go firm and strong with Roll20.
Fantasy Grounds was a pioneer but is losing ground, not for lack of quality, but for "beautification" and immediacy that the vast majority of people want.
Foundry is new and agile, it's a way to discover new programmers who work for free, have their "stolen" for the benefit of the community.


But I am patient and I know that the Master (FG) was always calm and fulfilled all our expectations, while many Students (Other Platforms) always fall...

[Valyar]

But I am patient and I know that the Master (FG) was always calm and fulfilled all our expectations, while many Students (Other Platforms) always fall...

I don’t think it will play this way with Foundry. But it is good to have finally some competition, as competition moves products forward. Unfortunately the speed Unity moves is not good enough. We will see, I am optimistic for now.

[Marquis_de_Taigeis]

Cant we all just get along and agree that just using multi user voice call and imagination is the most powerfull platform