FG Spreadshirt Swag
Page 2 of 2 First 12
  1. #11
    Trenloe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    29,848
    The thinking behind splitting DLC into two different modules, without duplication, began around 2 years ago.

    Pathfinder 2 also splits the data into two modules - if appropriate, one for the GM and one for the player, with little/no duplication across the two. There's currently one exception to this, the Lost Omens World Guide - the first non-core setting guide released before the shift in design methodology, and that will be reworked at some point.

    For Pathfinder 2 the split is made based on GM only information - i.e. information that the GM may not want the players to see as standard. The whole of the Core Rules is deliberately made as a player module, as that's expected to be a player resource (there's no "player handbook" and "DM guide" type rules split in the Pathfinder Core Rules) - you could argue that some magic items might be GM only initially, but that's a minor point and it could equally be argued that most of the magic items should be accessible to players.

    For example: The Lost Omens Character Guide has most of the data available to players (as you would expect for a character based product), but a small GM module has been made that includes details on organization adventure hooks NPC gallery and Theme Templates; all information that is GM specific and the GM may not want the players to see. If the GM does want the players to see this data, they can give them access to this module without causing any duplication. By default the GM will load both the player and GM modules for each product they want access to.

    The split only really effects the reference manual - having to jump between two reference manuals to get the full product information. Other data is displayed in the campaign data lists and grouped lists - which is where duplicates could become problematic; one of the reasons for splitting the modules without duplication (the other main one being data record links accessible to players). So, it's a trade off - the inconvenience of having to flip between two reference manuals, to the advantages of no duplication and valid data record links.
    Last edited by Trenloe; July 15th, 2021 at 09:38.
    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  2. #12
    Trenloe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Colorado, USA
    Posts
    29,848
    Quote Originally Posted by Talyn View Post
    As for Pathfinder, I never asked if Paizo had any input on how it was released but as I said, both editions simply come with a huge Core Rules module which contains both GM- and Player-facing data. So does Starfinder, but that's Paizo again.
    As mentioned in my post above - the Pathfinder 1, Pathfinder 2 and Starfinder core rules are released as one product, there's no real "GM only" section in these products as they're aimed at the core rules of the RPG system. As I mentioned, it could be argued that magic items might not be available to players, but perhaps that comes from more of a D&D way of thinking (where the magic items are in the DMs guide). Magic is very common in the Paizo universe, so I don't think it's too much of an issue that players see details of the standard magic items. In game, the PCs still need to identify a magic item before they know what it is and what it can do. The rest of the core rules is absolutely aimed at both players and GMs, so it makes sense to have it as a single FG module. Paizo did not have direct input on this as far as I'm aware.

    Addendum - the Starfinder core rules module was originally released as a single module, but that caused player side issues with FGC (loading all assets on module load), so the Starfinder Core Rules was split into a player and GM version for a period of time. Then the FGC player side architecture was changed to improve the player side resource issue, and the Starfinder Core Rules module was changed back to being a single combined player/GM module.
    Last edited by Trenloe; July 15th, 2021 at 09:29.
    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  3. #13

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    2,185
    Blog Entries
    7
    Ah, good stuff Trenloe!

    Leozelig, not sure if you're using a tool to create the stuff or hand-coding the XML but if the latter, one 'simple' (?) solution might be for the GM book, leave the content there but make all the links go to the Player module. That way you can leave the books (reference manuals) pretty much as-is, but if the GM clicks anything FG will prompt them to load the Player module. Won't matter which list the GM pulls data from as its all coming from the same location with no data duplication. Just a thought, not sure anyone's tried that trick yet?

  4. #14
    Zacchaeus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Location
    Scotland
    Posts
    17,269
    In 5e the Players Handbook and Dungeon Masters Guide are separate books and the former is obviously a player module and the latter is a DM module. So there's no problem with those two.

    The issue came when WotC started producing additional material in one book which was partly DM only information and partly character information like classes, races etc which could be used by players to create characters. In the first couple of these the DM module included all of the information just as it was presented in the book and included all the races, classes etc in a form that could be used to create characters. In addition a player's module was created so that the DM could share that module with the players in order for them to create characters without giving them the bits of the book that was DM only. This led to a couple of problems. The first being that if the DM had both modules open then they'd see two of every race/class etc in the lists and the second was that if they created characters using the DM version then the players added stuff from the players version characters could be all over the place and links could break.

    So for the last couple of years or more player facing material has only appeared in a players module in a form that can be used to create characters. So the DM version of the book contains everything; all the races and classes etc but only in the reference section. In other words the DM module can't be used to create characters since the races/classes etc don't appear there in a form which can be used to do that. The player module on the other hand includes all the player information both in a reference section and in a format that can be used to create characters. In this way any character created using that book will always be coming from the player version and if both books are open then only one race/class etc will appear from that particular book.

    This player facing module extends to any book where there is information which is DM only and also has player information too. So that might mean that there's a player module which is just reference material and doesn't contain any class or race information. It also applies to adventure modules where there may be a small players module containing just a couple of backgrounds or equipment items which they might have when creating characters.

    None of the older books were revised to change this. So, for example Volo's Guide, contains races in both the DM and players modules in the same format - so having both those modules open will still give the DM duplicates. These books have not been revised since this would break characters which have been created using the DM module. Over the years some modules have had additional player modules created where there was not one originally. Talyn mentions the DMG above but that never included races and classes from the PHB but it did include a sample new race and class and so a players version was created which included just those two things. So nothing has ever been removed from anything published; but there have been some additional modules created since the original publication which includes player material which could be used to create characters.
    If you need to contact customer support or if there is something that you would like to see in Fantasy Grounds that isn't currently part of the software or if there is something you think would improve a ruleset then add your idea here http://fgapp.idea.informer.com/

  5. #15
    leozelig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    1,511
    Blog Entries
    1
    Thanks everyone for your input!

    Talyn, linking things in the full GM version to the player module is exactly what I was thinking. But after reading everyone’s comments, I would prefer to make the entire DCC core rules accessible to players. This material is accessible to everyone who owns the printed book, so it seems unnecessary to chop it up for a VTT. DCC rarely uses standard monsters, and the magic items section doesn’t list too many actual magic items - it’s more of a template for creating your own content. There aren’t really spoilers lurking in those GM chapters.
    Last edited by leozelig; July 15th, 2021 at 12:09.

  6. #16

    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Jacksonville, FL
    Posts
    2,185
    Blog Entries
    7
    Ok yeah to my mind, that would be the two choices if I were handling it: either remove the player data from the GM book and switch the links, or just release the whole thing as a Core Book available to everyone like Pathfinder.

    Either way, you'll need to include a migration script in the ruleset that will automagically fix all the links (in this case, probably just switch all the GM-created character info links to the new Core Rules) in everyone's campaigns next time they run the updater once this goes live. Good thread, though, and glad this came up fairly early before too many supplements got released.

  7. #17
    leozelig's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Eastern USA
    Posts
    1,511
    Blog Entries
    1
    Yes, very enlightening! I might need some help with the migration script, but I'm going to finish up DCC Lankhmar first.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Joshua Stream Pre

Log in

Log in