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  1. #11
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deer_buster View Post
    How about to put it into perspective, 5E has not needed ruleset changes with any kind of frequency to make up for the fact that Wizards constantly adds content that requires ruleset changes, unlike Starfinder, which does....so to compare the two products is like comparing apples to green beans...
    I agree that the systems are very different, with Starfinder being an order of magnitude more complex than D&D 5e, with new rules being added with new products. I made the comparison because I wanted to get across that the 5E ruleset has essentially been in "maintenance mode" for years - not getting any major new ruleset functionality, with the exception of the character wizard. This is one of the main reasons why there has been a big growth in paid for 5E extensions on DMs Guild; because people want more functionality in 5E, and there's an official avenue for that with a way to monetize it - but DMs Guild and monetizing extensions is a completely different conversation that I don't want to get into here.

    What I'm trying to get across is that "maintenance mode" doesn't mean the death of a ruleset - far from it, for all the reasons I listed in my previous post.
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    You are not buying a promise of a future state of a product.
    You are buying the product as it is today.
    There is no implied promise to add more functionality to the product.
    This is true of most things that we buy.

    Numenera is also a free/core/included ruleset.
    There is no promise to add functionality to it.
    Odd, we put a LOT of money down on the promise of the future state of FGU. Are you saying we should just shut up and get what we get when we throw our hard-earned money at a product?
    aka Laendra

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  3. #13
    I guess "supported" means a lot of different things to different people. Supported to me means that as new content is sold by you that it will be supported by the ruleset by you
    aka Laendra

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    Extensions = risk to your gaming experience. If you haven't tested out the extensions in your campaign before your gaming session, turn them off. If you don't backup your campaigns regularly, you're doing it wrong.


  4. #14
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by deer_buster View Post
    I guess "supported" means a lot of different things to different people. Supported to me means that as new content is sold by you that it will be supported by the ruleset by you
    I suppose this comes down to the age-old question of how much automation do you expect in the ruleset as standard - you'll definitely get different viewpoints on that.

    In the end, if products have to have the level of automation that you appear to expect, then it seems that there are a bunch of products that won't be released - whether that ruleset has an active work-for-hire developer or not. Another discussion for somewhere different.

    I ultimately think this is a case of bad connotations being assigned to the phrase "maintenance mode". The Starfinder ruleset gets regular updates (every week for the last few weeks), regular product releases, developer engagement on the forums, a support channel to log issues, defect fixes, etc., etc.. It's not dead, it's not going away. Maybe think of it as "Active, looking for a ruleset developer to take it to even greater heights".
    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  5. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenloe View Post
    I suppose this comes down to the age-old question of how much automation do you expect in the ruleset as standard - you'll definitely get different viewpoints on that.

    In the end, if products have to have the level of automation that you appear to expect, then it seems that there are a bunch of products that won't be released - whether that ruleset has an active work-for-hire developer or not. Another discussion for somewhere different.

    I ultimately think this is a case of bad connotations being assigned to the phrase "maintenance mode". The Starfinder ruleset gets regular updates (every week for the last few weeks), regular product releases, developer engagement on the forums, a support channel to log issues, defect fixes, etc., etc.. It's not dead, it's not going away. Maybe think of it as "Active, looking for a ruleset developer to take it to even greater heights".
    Don't assUme...I said nothing of automation. I said support. Starship Operations Manual required rulset changes (additional fields, etc.) to allow for the new features of starships to be accounted for on the starship sheet. Alien Archive 3 required ruleset changes. COM required ruleset changes. Every product seems to REQUIRE a change to the base ruleset to allow the content to just be displayed. And now you are expecting content converters to also be programmers (that's rarely a good idea) in order for us to be able to get new content that requires these changes. That doesn't sound like Smiteworks supports the ruleset...sounds like Smiteworks requires the community to support it.

    I am fine with community developers providing automation via extension...but honestly, expecting us to foot the bill for automation for a software product that touts its automation in its advertisements, seems kind of FUBAR...and I can see why competition has started to step up.
    aka Laendra

    (Discord: Laendra#9660)
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    My opinions are my own and represent no entity other than myself

    Extension Support Discord: https://discord.gg/gKgC7nGpZK

    Extensions = risk to your gaming experience. If you haven't tested out the extensions in your campaign before your gaming session, turn them off. If you don't backup your campaigns regularly, you're doing it wrong.


  6. #16
    As the SmiteWorks developer that is currently monitoring and bug fixing the absent developer rulesets, I believe my work shows that we are not abandoning these rulesets. I have worked to ensure games can continue with the same level of automation and to allow those rulesets to work with new features that the main program has introduced. The maintenance tag means slower only in the expansion of features. I have reached out and worked with many of the content developers and offered to field questions and assist, when capable, to making sure their content is represented within the ruleset code. As we suggested with the WOIN ruleset, please create feature requests posts within the SFRPG forum to be reviewed. Also as you see more popular extensions are making their way into rulesets. These do not get unnoticed and are added. Thank you for the passion and discussion within, but please remember I will remain available to field questions and help to support the best way I can.
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  7. #17
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    @deer_buster - one persons support could be another persons automation, so please forgive my assumptions if inaccurate.

    We're getting into individual specifics of product development and requirements that really should be addressed directly between the converter and Smiteworks. EDIT: Thanks @superteddy57!

    I stand by my statements regarding the relatively healthy status of the Startfinder ruleset, and associated products, especially when compared with other FG rulesets as a whole.
    Private Messages: My inbox is forever filling up with PMs. Please don't send me PMs unless they are actually private/personal messages. General FG questions should be asked in the forums - don't be afraid, the FG community don't bite and you're giving everyone the chance to respond and learn!

  8. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    You are not buying a promise of a future state of a product.
    You are buying the product as it is today.
    There is no implied promise to add more functionality to the product.
    This is true of most things that we buy.

    Numenera is also a free/core/included ruleset.
    There is no promise to add functionality to it.
    I think you have missed the point of my statement. I did not ask for any new features. Your argument might work if SW was selling a static product like a book or a toaster. A Paizo product like Starfinder is not static and will require development over. There is also the consideration of the SW Store. I purchase a lot of products from the SW Store. It's important to me that the ecosystem I have chosen to game and spend my money has a future. I would never make a serious investment in a VTT company and it's products if they have stopped development on and RPG that is still consistently expanding the game. I think the term "maintenance mode" sends the wrong message. As a consumer I'm just voicing my opinion of how SW messaging sounds to me.

    I have never said I expect anything from SW and the Developers of free rulesets like Numenera.
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  9. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by superteddy57 View Post
    As the SmiteWorks developer that is currently monitoring and bug fixing the absent developer rulesets, I believe my work shows that we are not abandoning these rulesets. I have worked to ensure games can continue with the same level of automation and to allow those rulesets to work with new features that the main program has introduced. The maintenance tag means slower only in the expansion of features. I have reached out and worked with many of the content developers and offered to field questions and assist, when capable, to making sure their content is represented within the ruleset code. As we suggested with the WOIN ruleset, please create feature requests posts within the SFRPG forum to be reviewed. Also as you see more popular extensions are making their way into rulesets. These do not get unnoticed and are added. Thank you for the passion and discussion within, but please remember I will remain available to field questions and help to support the best way I can.
    Just to be clear my concerns were based strictly on MoonWizards comments. I'm happy that you have clarified the Starfiner rulesets current status.
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  10. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Trenloe View Post
    @deer_buster - one persons support could be another persons automation, so please forgive my assumptions if inaccurate.

    We're getting into individual specifics of product development and requirements that really should be addressed directly between the converter and Smiteworks. EDIT: Thanks @superteddy57!

    I stand by my statements regarding the relatively healthy status of the Startfinder ruleset, and associated products, especially when compared with other FG rulesets as a whole.
    To be fair to those that want the automation, the home page of this site does state "Fantasy Grounds partners with RPG companies to provide a unique experience for each game we support, with intelligent automation making your game easier to prep, more immersive for your players, and faster to run." (emphasis mine). So you could see how people would expect the automation to come with it...
    aka Laendra

    (Discord: Laendra#9660)
    Ultimate license (FGC/FGU)
    Current Timezone : Central (CDT) (GMT -5)
    OP: 3317036507 / 2369539

    My opinions are my own and represent no entity other than myself

    Extension Support Discord: https://discord.gg/gKgC7nGpZK

    Extensions = risk to your gaming experience. If you haven't tested out the extensions in your campaign before your gaming session, turn them off. If you don't backup your campaigns regularly, you're doing it wrong.


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