Request: Allow for negative AP values

[tintagel]

Any way this could be done with the existing architecture? I think being able to use this as a negative value would provide a lot of interesting options for weapons. For example:

• I would like for a basic club, staff, or even torch to be ineffective against any armor, effectively having a -1 AP, so a Gambeson's 1 Armor would count as 2.
• In Savage Armory (very popular accessory for SW) they have weapon properties with negative AP.
• Hollow Point ammunition could be simulated with, let's say, increased damage (+2) and range (-1) but with -2 or -3 armor penetration. Against armored targets, they would net less damage, but against unarmored targets, they would obviously be better choices.

I think the implementation should be easy, in theory, as you are simply subtracting the AP value from the current armor, as long as Armor = 1+. Subtracting a negative value should provide a positive result? I understand I'm ignorant of the actual way this is implemented in SW for FG, but it would be cool to have this.

I wasn't sure if I should put this into the FG feature request or here because it wouldn't necessarily apply to other rule systems or be part of Core.

[YggBjorn]

That is interesting, however that is not how armor works in my opinion. Hammers are more effective against most metal armors than swords are. The armor doesn't absorb much of the force of the hammer. In the case of Kevlar with bullets, some of the force is absorbed from the bullet but the remaining force can still break the ribs of the person wearing the Kevlar vest. So the positive number for the Armor absorbs some of the damage from the object that is striking it. If the object has the ability to penetrate the armor, it bypasses some of the Armor with it's positive AP. I haven't read the Savage Armory but it seems to be adding complexity where it is not needed. As stated before though, that is just my opinion.

On the technical side, I imagine someone could create an extension that would allow that functionality. Perhaps talk to the people who created the Savage Armory to see if they have the skills and interest to do it.

EDIT: I found the document for free on Zadmar's site and have perused it a little. I think you are misunderstanding what those negative numbers are talking about. They don't directly adjust the Armor value or the AP value, they are points used to balance the item, like the points based system used to create Races in the core rules. From the introduction, I underlined the part I am referencing:

Savage Worlds and the various Companions provide an extensive selection of weapons with
an interesting variety of modifiers, but some weapons are significantly better than others. For
many gaming groups this doesn't matter, but in some cases it can result in players choosing
weapons for their bonuses rather than because they're appropriate to the character concept.

 Savage Armoury addresses this issue by breaking weapons down into a series of abilities, in
exactly the same way as the race creation rules in Savage Worlds Deluxe or the Fantasy
Companion. Not everyone cares about weapon balance, and for those who don't the core
weapons are fine. But if you notice your players always use katanas, or you wish to encourage
more exotic character concepts such as knife fighters, you might find Savage Armoury useful
for adding a bit more weapon diversity to the party.

[SteemProphet]

I also have an interest in this for flechette/splinter/needler weapons. I have dealt with it so far by creating a new weapon property [needler] and applying it to the appropriate weapons (which you would have to create). Then create all new armors that have [@needler damage -x]. It works, but it would be much better to just have negative AP available.

[tintagel]

Savage Armory has clear properties you can purchase that reduce AP by 1. It's a thing. My thought is that sometimes, armor is MORE effective vs weapon types, so a blowgun needle or a whip, for example, could have a -2 or -3 AP, meaning that you would need to get a very good hit to deal enough damage to get past a gambeson - more than 1 point.

A negative AP rating would simply work like this on the back end:
* Is the target's Armor 1+?
* If True, (Armor Value - AP), Minimum 0.
* Thus a weapon with AP 1 vs leather = (leather - AP) or (2-1) = 1 armor.
* A weapon with -2 AP vs padded = (padded - AP) or (1 - (-2)) = (1+2) = 3 armor.

Pretty consistent math and it means that sometimes any armor is much more effective because the weapon has Poor armor penetration. Note that it can still deal damage based on strength or aces, but the armor is simply more effective than normal.

SteemProphet: good suggestion, and that's what I've been doing for things like Chain Mail (it's vulnerable 1 versus blunt and resists slashing 2) and I have all axes with the Chopping keyword. Wooden objects (like shields or Treants) have the "Wooden" special ability, which applies the effect: [@Chopping damage +4, @Fire Damage +2, @Piercing damage -4] to simulate vulnerability and resistances. This allows a LOT of "realistic feeling" mechanics without bogging my game down in the least.

This is the power of Fantasy Grounds: you get lots of complexity without the fiddling. It stays Fast, Furious, Fun but offers tactical choice. The computer does the math.

[Doswelk]

At the end of the day, Savage Armory is a Fan product, so if you want negative AP, you'd have to write your own extension, I do not think an Officially licensed product should include Fan content directly.

[tintagel]

This isn't about supporting fan content only; it's just a consistent application of a mathematical formula and one that's already in the system (I think).

Still, I understand about writing your own extension. I just have no experience with that and wouldn't know where to start. In the end, subtracting a negative number should be doable by someone.