Token Visibility LOS - Major update/BUG

[eporrini]

Last session I played (Thursday) LOS did not reveal a token unless 50% of the token was visible. Now, an update has made tokens visible is even the tiniest fraction of the square can be seen. This is a VERY BAD update as it creates WAY TOO MUCH visibility for players and almost breaks LOS as far as I am concerned. I hope this is just a glitch and not a "FIX". Note the player in the hallway with the tiniest sliver of square visibility seeing the "hidden" mummy.

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[LordEntrails]

I've duplicated this as well.
Version 4.0.2
D&D 5E
No extensions or themes

[Moon Wizard]

AFAIK, with regards to D&D, line of sight on creatures is from any corner on source to any corner on target. The number of corners determines cover/concealment amount.

Also, visibility is not something that can be done in percentages in any sort of efficient manner; it is done using point-based logic (center, corner). It was center to center; but that causes problems with large tokens, pillars, etc. It is currently source center to any target corner.

Regards,
JPG

[Paperclipkiller]

AFAIK, with regards to D&D, line of sight on creatures is from any corner on source to any corner on target. The number of corners determines cover/concealment amount.

Also, visibility is not something that can be done in percentages in any sort of efficient manner; it is done using point-based logic (center, corner). It was center to center; but that causes problems with large tokens, pillars, etc. It is currently source center to any target corner.

Regards,
JPG

This is correct, sight is based on corners. So this update is in line with 5e D&D at least. If anything, would it be possible for tokens to have multiple sources for their sight? Large tokens and bigger still only have the center of their token determining their sight, so they can't see someone around a corner but someone can see them. Center source is still important for stuff like doors, adding token corner sight sources would be helpful for the corners of walls.

I only ask it here since it would be weird to make an entire thread saying "it's weird and not necessarily a bug but kinda an issue that Large and bigger tokens can't see creatures around corners now but other creatures that are smaller can see them."

This update was one of many things I was looking for and a big selling point of Unity at least for me.

[Kelrugem]

Yeah, I also prefer the new update See the dynamic LoS as an auxiliary tool for determining line of sight and not as "physical visibility". Physical visibility is difficult to simulate in general: Just think about dragons; in most rulesets their occupied squares are just their squares in sense of determining LoS etc. (that is what the effectively block and occupy), but their wings and tails have often so big sizes that they span to other squares, too, just not mechanically important most of the time

But I understand of course where the confusion comes from. The mummy of the screenshot may hide in their square such that one could argue that mechanical LoS should not result into visibility of the token to surprise players, or because the mummy is very thin which is basically the physical-opposite of my dragon example and then my argument of above applies (i.e. full simulation of physical visibility is difficult); in that case I would make the mummy's token permanently invisible (right-click on the token to change its visibility, or make the mummy invisible in the CT). But normally many rulesets handle tokens as "very dynamic", so, the mummy does not stand still there, so, the players may get a glimpse from time to time which is why the players know where the mummy is. In 3.5e for example the mummy would still have total concealment to reflect that bad visibility (when I am not mistaken)

[LordEntrails]

DMG (5E) > Chapter 8 > Areas of Effect > Line of Sight

To precisely determine whether there is line of sight between two spaces, pick a corner of one space and trace an imaginary line from that corner to any part of another space. If at least one such line doesn't pass through or touch an object or effect that blocks vision such as a stone wall, a thick curtain, or a dense cloud of fog-then there is line of sight.

So Center to corner seems a good solution for now. Esp considering other rulesystems undoubtedly have other rules.

Edit: also not that LOS does not determine cover, there are other rules for that

[eporrini]

My point was not at all about cover, it was about party members being able to see and act on that sight with in essence zero visibility. LOS allows one to not only see what's there but take actions against it. Many spells and abilities require only the need to see the target. I much prefer the center to center LOS that was in place prior and am of the mind that how it works now makes it almost useless. Even with my manually hiding the visibility on tokens, as soon as I reveal the token it becomes apparent to all what the creature is and where it's located. I do admit with larger creatures LOS was not perfect prior, but seeing a sliver of any size creature and calling it visible is not the fix.

If there is a break from the player community in what people want, then I suggest making this a toggle switch that I can set (center to center or center to corner) so I at least have the option to run the game the way me and my players prefer. I am also happy with other, better options for visibility that don't break the purpose of what LOS is meant to add to the game.

I had one additional thought I wanted to share. By the center to corner definition, a rogue would be unable to hide in that completely obscured area the zombie resides in during combat from the party member 25' down the hall, or pretty much anywhere on either side of the chamber due to the sliver of visibility and remaining seen. I can't see how that would be considered working.

[Kelrugem]

My point was not at all about cover, it was about party members being able to see and act on that sight with in essence zero visibility. LOS allows one to not only see what's there but take actions against it. Many spells and abilities require only the need to see the target. I much prefer the center to center LOS that was in place prior and am of the mind that how it works now makes it almost useless. Even with my manually hiding the visibility on tokens, as soon as I reveal the token it becomes apparent to all what the creature is and where it's located. I do admit with larger creatures LOS was not perfect prior, but seeing a sliver of any size creature and calling it visible is not the fix.

If there is a break from the player community in what people want, then I suggest making this a toggle switch that I can set (center to center or center to corner) so I at least have the option to run the game the way me and my players prefer. I am also happy with other, better options for visibility that don't break the purpose of what LOS is meant to add to the game.

But whether or not you see someone in game mechanics is precisely given by the LoS, the LoS is basically the mechanical rule/definition about whether one can see the target to do actions against Yeah, may not always may make sense such that one may need to interfere, but that are the rules as written (cited for 5e above; I think it is about 5e for you?). Option would be indeed nice then, but I am not sure whether that is easily possible (at least as an option while the game is running)

[eporrini]

But whether or not you see someone in game mechanics is precisely given by the LoS, the LoS is basically the mechanical rule/definition about whether one can see the target to do actions against Yeah, may not always may make sense such that one may need to interfere, but that are the rules as written (cited for 5e above; I think it is about 5e for you?). Option would be indeed nice then, but I am not sure whether that is easily possible (at least as an option while the game is running)

Firstly, I love FGU and have been a FG customer for years. LOS was a major draw for me to re-buy licenses of FG and I have really been enjoying it. It creates a sense of immersion that both I and everyone in my campaign enjoy. 5e is a tabletop game that is now being heavily played virtually and the original designers were expecting the DM's to use common sense and best judgement when applying the rules. It's hard to imagine their intent was LOS as implemented here, even if by the letter of the law you are correct. I would also add that currently it has to be any corner to any corner (not center to corner) to get the severe angles being revealed. I hope others speak out with me, I am passionate about FGU and the game and this needs to be looked at and corrected. If you read though this thread, please add your comments and support.

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[Paperclipkiller]

I'll be honest it doesn't seem like a bug/issue to me. It being more accurate (at least for 5e) is a good thing. The way it was before was technically an issue since it wasn't as accurate. Heck, even right now it should reveal *more*, since the source of vision should technically be the entire square and not just the center. However that's not possible with a points based lighting system. Adding additional sources on the corners would be beneficial, however sometimes a token is partially in the wall and thus would be able to see through it. Plus the Large Tokens and bigger not having proper LoS if their vision is based on the center of their token and not center+corners.

Now a solution for that could be that the corner sources would only be active when the center source can see them. However I have no idea how LoS is coded and if that would be possible with the current system.

In your above exactly with the guy walking down a hallway and seeing the Huge token, in the old system the Medium token wouldn't even see it until it was basically in the room. That's an issue. With this update, this fixed that issue.