Why no 3D?

[amerigoV]

I have just recently seen some VTT map making software that creates 3d rooms pretty quickly. Just cannot recall the link or what it was called at the moment. I came here looking for more info on the Tabletop Connect software written by Carl Pinder that was bought out by Smiteworks. Can anyone point me in the right direction to anything recent on the project? Been waiting for 3d VTT software as well for quite some time.

Are you thinking Dungeon Alchemist? It was just KS'd

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tm/description

[HywelPhillips]

One thing I'd not appreciated before this thread was that some people want the virtual tabletop to simulate the experience of sitting around the table with your friends, and they want virtual miniatures and virtual dwarven forge dungeons and so on to support that.

That's a use-case I'd not considered, but it does seem like a valid one- and much more achievable than what sprang to my mind when you say "3D VTT", which was something much more like a 3D computer game.

One of the things I actually like about VTT play is that it gets rid of one "indirection" operation. Your token in the VTT is directly tied to your character and character sheet. It *is* your avatar, your character in the virtual world, even though that world is 2D. You, the player, can see what your token can see. You can damage the ogre by dragging and dropping onto the ogre. Very soon in FGU you will be able to see in the dark if your token can see in the dark, and not if not. To me that's a much more direct immersion into the game world, and what I personally am after.

The alternate use case of wanting to feel like you are around the table with your friends playing with physical miniatures is a much more indirect immersion in the RPG world, to me. Why use a 3D miniature in a limited 3D dungeon geomorph and have the "god mode" overview if you can dive deeper and see through your character's eyes? It had not even occurred to me that some people would prefer a 3D rendering with "stand up" cardboard tokens in a dungeon geomorph because it came closer to the virtual kitchen table. Seeing the other characters like you are crouching down at the table and trying to do real LOS feels more indirect than just doing it in 2D.

But I now have a much greater appreciation of why that 3D is appealing if you're trying to achieve the replication of the physical act of gaming around the kitchen table. The reality you are trying to replicate or evoke is different from the one I'm trying to do. No wonder we've been talking a bit at cross-purposes for a lot of this thread!

I was concerned that 3D immersion the way I'm trying to achieve it - making the game world seem real - requires the art and asset department of a AAA computer game developer, rather than being something feasible for GMs to do solo. 2D is the sweet spot for that.

But if the 3D immersion you are striving for is the kitchen table moving miniatures around a map, no wonder you want something more 3D, and no wonder you're not so worried about the creation of all the assets! A decent virtual version of a bunch of dungeon geomorphs and 3D model sculpts from a typical miniature figure range might actually be better than a fully-rendered 3D version of the game world for you. (And fortunately is probably much more achievable).

Cheers, Hywel

[AzgrymnThePale]

Are you thinking Dungeon Alchemist? It was just KS'd

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...tm/description

That was it I believe, thank you. It got me thinking of it as a possibility. A type of Dwarven Forge for your VTT. I certainly understand what you are saying as well HywelPhillips. It was only a couple years ago that I made the switch to primarily VTT. Most of my game testers wanted that same experience of the table it seemed. I also think that some of the tools we have with the VTT make it more immersive. Not to be an advocate for Roll20 or anything I am just going with what I know here but the fact that you can see through the eyes of your token and in different types of vision with the click of a button is amazingly immersive. As well using the macros built and the sheets for my own Chaos System mechanics in Demon Gate you can configure damage after a dice roll in an instant. That gets you back to the RP of the game.

There are certainly so many great perks to the VTT, especially with Covid around. I have been trying to coerce my old testers to sit down and play. Some of them have trouble turning a computer on. Im like "cmon boomers its 2021 homies, gotta evolve with the tech here."

I just purchased the Oculus Quest 2 for my kids and tried it out. Immediately the rpg table came to mind as I was blown away.

[Nylanfs]

Look up Tabletop Simulator for VR gaming sessions also.

[Merell]

One concern I have with 3d parallels what movies have become. In years past a good movie was based on the story. Today they are based more on the special effects. A lot of "Good" movies these days really suck for story. In fact many of them if you took the special effects away you would not understand at all what was going on in the story because, well there really isn't one. Yes on the flip side you can mention a lot that have both but I think that too many people are getting wrapped up in "what they see" and not what the content is.

I would be afraid that many talented story driven Gms / DMs would be side lined by the guy that loves to throw 100000 explosions in their game just to draw the crowds. But to through my own argument off I guess that would be the audiences (players) choice.

[SteveSchultz]

While everyone here argues about 3D support - everyone else has started doing it. With today's tools, it doesn't take much more time than traditional design. FGU is falling behind.

Dungeon Alchemist is OK for quick 3D maps, but has it quirks - just like every other 2D map making app. Very small learning curve.
Blender4 - I can't say enough about Blender. It does have a larger learning curve but has many tutorials and tons of free tools/models to play with. If you do look into this, may I suggest starting with this tutorial.
Pair that with OpenAI for assistance in image/story creation - wham bam thank you ma'am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIoXOplUvAw

The river of life, always flowing and changing. If you don't jump in at some point, you'll get left behind and fade away.

[Jiminimonka]

While everyone here argues about 3D support - everyone else has started doing it. With today's tools, it doesn't take much more time than traditional design. FGU is falling behind.

Dungeon Alchemist is OK for quick 3D maps, but has it quirks - just like every other 2D map making app. Very small learning curve.
Blender4 - I can't say enough about Blender. It does have a larger learning curve but has many tutorials and tons of free tools/models to play with. If you do look into this, may I suggest starting with this tutorial.
Pair that with OpenAI for assistance in image/story creation - wham bam thank you ma'am.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIoXOplUvAw

The river of live, always flowing and changing. If you don't jump in at some point, you'll get left behind and fade away.

Dungeon Alchemist is not a VTT and the maps are 2.5D not 3D. Blender is not a VTT, its a full feature 3D modelling suite.

So which VTT is it falling behind (and the others catching up is not the same as FG falling behind).

Good tutorial, I watched it before.

[SteveSchultz]

Dungeon Alchemist is not a VTT and the maps are 2.5D not 3D. Blender is not a VTT, its a full feature 3D modelling suite.

I never claimed any of these were full VTT packages.

So which VTT is it falling behind (and the others catching up is not the same as FG falling behind).

You're kidding right? Google, there are existing (Talespire, TableTop Sim, etc) and many upcoming that are built with unity or unreal engine. Furthermore, did I say it was falling behind other VTTs? No. Falling behind in 3D support? YES. And that's where we're going - you can come if you want.

Argumentative reply at best.

[ddavison]

We are working our way towards 3D and will be releasing the first phase of this in early 2024 with our 2.5D approach.

It is much easier to get to 3D when you start with a 3D centric platform from the beginning versus adding 3D support to our existing platform. We are rebuilt on Unity 3D with FGU though, so I suspect we may be able to get a good blend of VTT game system support mixed with 3D.

[Zacchaeus]

As we've seen from sneak peaks 2.5d is coming to FGU soon.

It's not just a case of cobbling together a few modules and slapping them onto a map. A great deal of under the hood coding has to be done to take advantage of the Unity Engine's capabilities to make that work in Fantasy Grounds. The VTT's that have been mentioned are all web based and so can use the built in features of your browser to do all the work. FGU isn't web based and can't take advantage of such a simplistic method.

But as I say; 2.5D is just around the corner.