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  1. #1

    Vacc Suits and Armour for the min max players

    Hi all,
    I have some players that want to min max everything, especially armour soaking items. I have interpreted the Core Rulebook to allow a specific number of energy absorbing armour items stacked with kinetic armour pieces. No problems there.
    However, when donning a vacc suit, I caught them trying to wear armour under the suit. They argued that the suit was baggy enough to wear armour underneath.

    As a GM, I don't want to break a combat system with players stacked up to 20 kinetic armour. Just does not make for an adventurous play.

    I am asking other GM's if they have encountered this same attempt. The rules state within some armour items they are stackable. I cannot find a ruling in the book about stacking with a vacc suit.

    Thanks for your input

    Deej

  2. #2
    If they insist, I'd let them with a Dex penalty and occasional vacc suit functionality checks depending on what they are doing. Like if they were attempting an intricate repair outside the ship then they'd suffer a neg. check. etc...

  3. #3
    We permit only one armor item to stack, and only if it says it's possible.

    The only explicitly stackable armor is TL12 cloth iirc.

    So the rules are on you side.

    Also don't forget stacking armor inside a vacc suit won't stop the vac suit from failing/ being holed.

  4. #4
    While a vacc suit is baggy, it is not loose. All that baggy is actually layers of protective and radiation absorbing materials. The suit itself is generally fairly snug and also has internal waste management resources that would preclude having anything between the suit and the waste exhaust ports of the human body. Just something to consider.

  5. #5
    Thank you for your input! Good common sense solutions.

  6. #6
    We had our session last night. They, the min/maxing PCs, grumbled but saw the logic with no armour under a Vacc Suit. Unfortunately, the 'Only Cloth TL12 is stackable' rule was contested.
    Coming from the CSC book:
    Page 11 states that Cloth TL12 is thin and can be worn under other types of armour.
    Page 16 states that the Anti-Energy section of items can be worn over other types of armour...And among those Anti-Energy items, ABLAT is the only one excluded from being worn over other types of armour.

    So as you might think, it has been posed that with a given piece of armour, you can stack one under and one over said piece of armour...thus creating a rather bulky human tank that would ruin any sense of danger during an altercation.
    Cloth TL12 (under) + Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 + Dispersion (over) would add up to:: (+4 kinetic) + (+10) + (+2 Kinetic +10 laser and energy) == +16 Kinetic and +20 laser and energy. That's quite a buzz-kill when you want a risky battle.

    While this is absurd, implied application is there in the rules. Yes, a GM can impose limitations but a clearer understanding of what the CSC really means is what I need.

    And one more thing! About that Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11...it states that it is "...good against all forms of weapons". That explains the +20 laser and energy in the absurd stacking example earlier.
    Is that correct? If so, wow what piece of armour! Yeah you can't wear it everywhere but out on a planet being stalked by some nomadic Aslan tribe, stacking that armour with cloth can make you rather immune to damage.

  7. #7
    I’ve been playing the general rule that in a stressful situation such as a combat zone or moving through a vacuum after half Endurance characteristic rounded up hours + vacc suit skill DM, when suited up, fatigue sets in creating a bane to all actions until a proper rest is taken. Otherwise if simply sitting around in the ship, walking slowly with the helmet off etc. it is End characteristic + vacc suit DM in hours so even the toughest characters rarely go more than 12 hours without needing to take a rest which generally requires the suit coming off.

    It’s a bit of a guideline though, of course some activities and environments are much more demanding than others. The better sessions we have are the ones where we don’t get bogged down in rules so maybe it just takes a little time for players to realise what is a good session and what isn’t. Making it more of an effort than it needs to be for the GM doesn’t help the game.
    Last edited by rcruk; October 17th, 2020 at 15:50.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by deejaay1018 View Post
    We had our session last night. They, the min/maxing PCs, grumbled but saw the logic with no armour under a Vacc Suit. Unfortunately, the 'Only Cloth TL12 is stackable' rule was contested.
    Coming from the CSC book:
    Page 11 states that Cloth TL12 is thin and can be worn under other types of armour.
    Page 16 states that the Anti-Energy section of items can be worn over other types of armour...And among those Anti-Energy items, ABLAT is the only one excluded from being worn over other types of armour.

    So as you might think, it has been posed that with a given piece of armour, you can stack one under and one over said piece of armour...thus creating a rather bulky human tank that would ruin any sense of danger during an altercation.
    Cloth TL12 (under) + Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 + Dispersion (over) would add up to:: (+4 kinetic) + (+10) + (+2 Kinetic +10 laser and energy) == +16 Kinetic and +20 laser and energy. That's quite a buzz-kill when you want a risky battle.

    While this is absurd, implied application is there in the rules. Yes, a GM can impose limitations but a clearer understanding of what the CSC really means is what I need.

    And one more thing! About that Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11...it states that it is "...good against all forms of weapons". That explains the +20 laser and energy in the absurd stacking example earlier.
    Is that correct? If so, wow what piece of armour! Yeah you can't wear it everywhere but out on a planet being stalked by some nomadic Aslan tribe, stacking that armour with cloth can make you rather immune to damage.
    I have had this sort of conversation with many groups over many games and I have come to the same conclusion everytime - but make sure you explain it to them before implementing it. The more armor they buy/wear the bigger guns the bad guys get. Explain this power curve to them and if they still want to min/max the armor let them.. Then the next big fight there will be a guy with a heavy machine gun (heavy weapons), or a Gauss Rifle with AP rounds. A gauss rifle with AP rounds has a total AP of 9 and will do some good damage to even those with armor in the low 20s. Its all about escalation. Make sure they understand it. And then make sure you carry through with it. Not saying you should kill the party, but make sure they understand the relationship between bigger armor and bigger guns... Guns always win.

    Xargun

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by deejaay1018 View Post
    We had our session last night. They, the min/maxing PCs, grumbled but saw the logic with no armour under a Vacc Suit. Unfortunately, the 'Only Cloth TL12 is stackable' rule was contested.
    Coming from the CSC book:
    Page 11 states that Cloth TL12 is thin and can be worn under other types of armour.
    Page 16 states that the Anti-Energy section of items can be worn over other types of armour...And among those Anti-Energy items, ABLAT is the only one excluded from being worn over other types of armour.

    So as you might think, it has been posed that with a given piece of armour, you can stack one under and one over said piece of armour...thus creating a rather bulky human tank that would ruin any sense of danger during an altercation.
    Cloth TL12 (under) + Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11 + Dispersion (over) would add up to:: (+4 kinetic) + (+10) + (+2 Kinetic +10 laser and energy) == +16 Kinetic and +20 laser and energy. That's quite a buzz-kill when you want a risky battle.

    While this is absurd, implied application is there in the rules. Yes, a GM can impose limitations but a clearer understanding of what the CSC really means is what I need.

    And one more thing! About that Lightweight Poly Carapace TL11...it states that it is "...good against all forms of weapons". That explains the +20 laser and energy in the absurd stacking example earlier.
    Is that correct? If so, wow what piece of armour! Yeah you can't wear it everywhere but out on a planet being stalked by some nomadic Aslan tribe, stacking that armour with cloth can make you rather immune to damage.
    The section on energy armors states that you can only stack one type of armor, period.
    So that implies that you cannot stack BOTH energy armor on top AND tl12 cloth under.
    That's how we read it.
    Otherwise, as you said, things get cray-cray real quick.
    If they moan and bitch show them how their triple layer armor bounces all light weapons.
    Then discuss the problems of all those layers of clothes.
    If they still resist after all that beat them on the head with the rulebook until they submit.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Xargun View Post
    I have had this sort of conversation with many groups over many games and I have come to the same conclusion everytime - but make sure you explain it to them before implementing it. The more armor they buy/wear the bigger guns the bad guys get. Explain this power curve to them and if they still want to min/max the armor let them.. Then the next big fight there will be a guy with a heavy machine gun (heavy weapons), or a Gauss Rifle with AP rounds. A gauss rifle with AP rounds has a total AP of 9 and will do some good damage to even those with armor in the low 20s. Its all about escalation. Make sure they understand it. And then make sure you carry through with it. Not saying you should kill the party, but make sure they understand the relationship between bigger armor and bigger guns... Guns always win.

    Xargun
    ...and there are MANY things much worse than guns. We’re currently playing the Deepnight Endeavour scenario...

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