Are the 5E rules supposed to be incomplete? [ANGRY RANT]

[JohnSchwartz]

You can't expect a program that's fully 100% customizable to do everything for you, can you?

YES! That is exactly what I expect when I buy a professionally made product. This isn't freeware. It's not an early access beta. And a rogue's sneak attack is both easy to implement (we agree!) and absolutely core to the class. Neither you nor I should have to do anything to make it happen. There should already be something like "Sneak Attack; DMG: ([ROGUE]+1)/2d6" or something like that as soon as you use create a Rogue is 5E. You shouldn't even have to modify it as you level up, that's what software is supposed to handle for you.

Remember, the VTT is one thing you pay for, and the PHB module is something else you pay for. They should both be complete and functional. The point of a program like this should be to lift trivial burdens off the DM.

[Willot]

Mmm ok its a paid product, more time is put into fully automating the ruleset. So in a couple months time its fully featured. Okis the ruleset/module is now $180

[Zacchaeus]

Yeah, I've been working on that today. Instead of planning for today's session, I'm going on the wiki trying to implement rules that I already paid somebody else to implement. Heavy Armor Mastery, Fighting Styles, Sneak Attack, and now I'm struggling with Elemental Adept. I come back to the forums, and I find a bunch of people basically saying to shut up and RTFM.

I'm looking through the manual and the wiki. Elemental Adept lets you ignore target resistance. I think it should be something like "IFT: RESIST: fire; !RESIST: fire" or "IFT: RESIST: fire; RESIST: !fire", but when I try to apply those it ignore the ! and just turns them into "IFT: RESIST: fire; RESIST: fire". This is just making me more mad, and more frustrated and I'm really starting to regret buying this product.

A five year old thread says that Elemental Adept is impossible to implement. Is this still the case? Is there any chance that it will be made possible in future updates?

https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...al-Adept-in-FG

Yes, there's no change to the elemental adept. You'll need to do it manually. It's no problem if there are no resistant creatures but if there are then the easiest thing to do is drag the damage from chat back ionto the resistant creatures which will apply another half damage bringing it up to full damage.

[TMO]

Yeah, I've been working on that today. Instead of planning for today's session, I'm going on the wiki trying to implement rules that I already paid somebody else to implement. Heavy Armor Mastery, Fighting Styles, Sneak Attack, and now I'm struggling with Elemental Adept. I come back to the forums, and I find a bunch of people basically saying to shut up and RTFM.

I agree that this is how some of the comments appear to have come across. I normally give this community a huge benefit of the doubt because they are always willing to help whenever possible.

That said, I don't think your expectations are unrealistic from a certain point of view (and, no, I'm not trying to obfuscate the truth like Obi Wan Kenobi...) That is, I too wish Fantasy Grounds was optimised to fully automate D&D 5E whenever possible. However, I have come to accept the premise that Fantasy Grounds is a gaming paltform first that provides a very flexible rules engine. It cannot be expected to do everything that we might want...although clearly it could do more since we know there are ways to create effects and mods to fill in the gaps.

[dmbrown]

Don’t know if this will do everything you want and it is $2, but you can check it out and see.

https://www.dmsguild.com/product/312...l-AdeptFantasy

[TXCBoy36]

YES! That is exactly what I expect when I buy a professionally made product. This isn't freeware. It's not an early access beta. And a rogue's sneak attack is both easy to implement (we agree!) and absolutely core to the class. Neither you nor I should have to do anything to make it happen. There should already be something like "Sneak Attack; DMG: ([ROGUE]+1)/2d6" or something like that as soon as you use create a Rogue is 5E. You shouldn't even have to modify it as you level up, that's what software is supposed to handle for you.

Remember, the VTT is one thing you pay for, and the PHB module is something else you pay for. They should both be complete and functional. The point of a program like this should be to lift trivial burdens off the DM.

Lift trivial burdens off of the DM? I am not sure that I am understanding that statement. The motivation of FG was that I could take old modules that I played 30 years ago and through this VTT, re-create these old modules and play them with my kids, or create my own module and FG gives ALL of tools needed to do this. I have enjoyed learning how to code the effects into these PC character sheets and show the players how to apply these effects....which includes the effect for Sneak Attack which works great and allows the specific player playing the Rogue to apply the effect and then see it work on their attack role.

I purchased all of the source books, modules, Rob Twohy's effects, FGC and FGU Ultimate Licenses, etc., and really enjoy the opportunity to learn more.

I have made the mistake of getting Freeware for platforms that I wanted to play and have never seen one that had such a large source of resources, such as this forum, the discord channels, FG College, etc...there are tons of sources to learn what you need to run a good game.

I also feel that I am contributing to Smiteworks for all of the time they spent in developing this platform which means they had play testers, developers, programmers, etc., and there is always a cost to that. I do not regret anything that I have seen since joining this gaming community.

If you need some help on how to make this run smoother, then let me know. I am no expert, but I have learned enough to explain to a group of teenagers and they love the platform and keep coming back to play every week with alot of enthusiasm....

[TXCBoy36]

They have effects and mods to fill the pages, but that does not equate to complete automation. To allow for this type of flexibility that FG offers, it would be very difficult to just focus in on 1 ruleset like 5e. FG is not a 5e platform, but a VTT that allows for a wide range of gaming systems which involves many different rulesets so common sense suggests that it would be difficult to just apply automation to 1 particular rule set....

[Ludd_G]

I'm sorry, I'm a huge supporter of FG, but I really think the original poster has a valid point. FG is not cheap, and that's fine, but its main selling point is the ability of its automation to reduce the DMs workload, and in this I think it's starting to let us down. There has been a recent upsurge in amazing 3rd party coding being produced to plug the many gaps in basic automation. So we know that this automation is possible and these 3rd party producers are really pushing the envelope in what they can get FG to do, it's really quite inspiring. But it comes at a cost on top of FG. Now for what they are doing I think the pricing is more than fair, but I'm not sure we should have to be paying anyone more for automation of basic class/race/items/effect/abilities than the cost of FG. The more esoteric stuff, yeah totally, but 'Sneak Attack', 'Pack Tactics', 'Wild Shape'? Come on, really?

I am so glad there are people plugging the gap, but I'm really not sure I think we should need them to. And once you start adding the cost of these amazing 3rd party products suddenly that $180 for a fully automated ruleset/module isn't looking so fantastical.

Cheers,

Simon

[LordEntrails]

IMO its about expectations.

The developers have always stated that their intent in 5E is for the ruleset to automate somewhere around 80% of the game mechanics. Part of this is flexibility (i.e. the same reason that damage is triggered separately from attacks being a hit), because when you automate too much, exception and house rules are ignored or more difficult to catch. The second is diminishing returns; yes many things that are not being automated can be automated, but doing so requires resources that can not be used for something AND everything that is automated requires ongoing maintenance. So, the more you automate, the more overhead the devs have to spend just maintaining that automation for every update and implementation of a new feature.

Look, we get it. Every now and then we get folks who express this opinion. And they are right. But they are also wrong. Because it's all about expectations and perspectives. And SmiteWorks will say this too, if FG is not the right tool for you, they wish you well and hope you find the tool that works better for you. They are always happy to hear the opinions of the community, but they can't give everyone everything they want. They are only human.

[Neovirtus]

I'm sorry, I'm a huge supporter of FG, but I really think the original poster has a valid point. FG is not cheap, and that's fine, but its main selling point is the ability of its automation to reduce the DMs workload, and in this I think it's starting to let us down. There has been a recent upsurge in amazing 3rd party coding being produced to plug the many gaps in basic automation. So we know that this automation is possible and these 3rd party producers are really pushing the envelope in what they can get FG to do, it's really quite inspiring. But it comes at a cost on top of FG. Now for what they are doing I think the pricing is more than fair, but I'm not sure we should have to be paying anyone more for automation of basic class/race/items/effect/abilities than the cost of FG. The more esoteric stuff, yeah totally, but 'Sneak Attack', 'Pack Tactics', 'Wild Shape'? Come on, really?

I am so glad there are people plugging the gap, but I'm really not sure I think we should need them to. And once you start adding the cost of these amazing 3rd party products suddenly that $180 for a fully automated ruleset/module isn't looking so fantastical.

Cheers,

Simon

I agree with this statement completely.

In the same way, I am a big fan of this software and have no intention of switching, but the fact that many of the class features are not (or even worse, CANNOT) be automated is a problem. I understand the arguments made by many: that any automation is a bonus and compared to where it was in the past what we have now is a huge improvement... but I simply disagree with that logic. The very fact that many third party effects packages are considered essential, whether Zacchaeus' Class Effects or Rob2E's DMs Guild packages, is a symptom of the issue that cannot be ignored.

I will say to the OP, once you get over the initial frustration of needing to work around some of the rough edges, you barely even notice these deficiencies. I find that Fantasy Grounds is a fantastic software that simplifies running a game to the point where I even use it for in-person games. BUT, there are things that aren't ideal and this is definitely one of them. Hopefully it will improve with time. I'd say to be aware that there is a 30 day money back guarantee if you're really dissatisfied, but I don't think any of the competitors really come close to even the current state of FG. I hope you stick with the software, continue to contribute to the community and hopefully they'll hear us asking for better automation and make improvements.