5E - Theogeek's Improved Critical

[TheoGeek]

Suggestion as we just had a lengthy discussion at my table on implementing this, could you add the additional option to just guarantee Half instead of Max? That way you guarantee actually full damage instead of 3/4 of a max critical mathematically.

Well, my extension (with the default option set) guarantees at least full normal damage + any crit damage rolled so do you mean you want an option to do MAX(normal damage) and HALF(MAX(crit damage))?

I may not be understanding so let me give an example and see if this is what you are talking about...

Barbarian uses a greatsword (2d6)
Barbarian crits
RAW says that the damage is 2d6 (normal weapon damage) + 2d6 (critical weapon damage) : RANGE = 4-24

With my extension, you can set the option to do:
1) MAX(2d6) + 2d6 = 12 (normal) + 2-12 critical : RANGE = 14-24
2) 2d6 + MAX(2d6) = 2-12 (normal) + 12 critical : RANGE = 14-24
3) MAX(2d6 + 2d6) = 12 normal + 12 critical : RANGE = 24

Are you asking for an option that would do any of the following:
1a) HALF(2d6) + 2d6 = 1-6 (normal) + 2-12 (critical) : RANGE = 3-18
2a) 2d6 + HALF(2d6) = 2-12 (normal) + 1-6 (critical) : RANGE = 3-18
3a) HALF(2d6 + 2d6) = 1-6 (normal) + 1-6 (critical) : RANGE = 2-12

OR

1b) HALF(MAX(2d6)) + 2d6 = 6 (normal) + 2-12 (critical) : RANGE = 8-18
2b) 2d6 + HALF(MAX(2d6)) = 2-12 (normal) + 6 (critical) : RANGE = 8-18
3b) HALF(MAX(2d6 + 2d6)) = 6 (normal) + 6 (critical) : RANGE = 12

OR

1c) Any combination of MAX() and HALF(MAX()) so you could do MAX(2d6) + HALF(MAX(2d6)) = 12 (normal) + 6 (critical) = 18. Like the option would be HalfMax for either normal dice or critical dice or both?

I can add whatever options, but any of the "a" or "b" options seem to nerf the damage instead of buff the damage.

Or are none of those what you are asking?

Let me know and I'll see what I can do!

[MrDDT]

I think what they want (not what I'm asking for).

They want to make sure that the roll is going to meet the minimum of 1/2 the first dice of damage. IE. 1d8 would have to be a 4 or higher on the first roll.
So currently on a crit, you can do a 1d8 + 1d8, getting anywhere from 2 to 16 damage, using the first die at max (as the current setting), you could get a 9 to 16.
So instead of only the options of 2 to 16, or 9 to 16, they want min 1/2 on the first die. Which would be 5 to 16.

Personally, I don't see the need but I guess having it a little more refined slightly lower is maybe better for some.
Doing MAX + second die RNG might be to much for some.

TLDR
Current options are
2 to 16 or 9 to 16. They want the option for 5 to 16.

[TheoGeek]

Ah, gotcha.

So, for something like a greatsword, I'm assuming a range of 6-12 (3-6 + 3-6) rather than 4-12 (3-6 + 1-6)? for the normal damage?

That would give, for the 4d6 on a greatsword crit (2d6 + 2d6) a range of (6-12) + (2-12) = 8-24 instead of (4-12) + (2-12) = 6-24.

I think I get it.

It'll be a good exercise...I'll call it something like "soft critical" or something.

[MrDDT]

Ah, gotcha.

So, for something like a greatsword, I'm assuming a range of 6-12 (3-6 + 3-6) rather than 4-12 (3-6 + 1-6)? for the normal damage?

That would give, for the 4d6 on a greatsword crit (2d6 + 2d6) a range of (6-12) + (2-12) = 8-24 instead of (4-12) + (2-12) = 6-24.

I think I get it.

It'll be a good exercise...I'll call it something like "soft critical" or something.

Yes, however, you said "(4-12) + (2-12)", when "normal crit" of a GS is (2-12) + (2-12) = 4-24 range.

Note: This part is correct.
As your GS example with the "SOFTCRIT" it would be 6-12 + 2-12 = 8-24.

Also Note:
With the MAX first die, it would be 12 + 2-12 = 14-24. So quite noticeable change.

@Slagmoth,
This would also minimize the effect of special skills like Great Weapon Fighter which reroll 1s and 2s. Just throwing that in there a bit.


TLDR
Example Greatsword Crit
Normal Crit = 4 - 24
SOFT Crit = 8 - 24
MAX First = 14 - 24

[TheoGeek]

Yes, however, you said "(4-12) + (2-12)", when "normal crit" of a GS is (2-12) + (2-12) = 4-24 range.

Yeah, that 4-12 came from the idea of halfmaxing only 1 of the 2 damage dice for normal damage (3-6 + 1-6 = 4-12) - assuming that's NOT what they wanted.

With the MAX first die, it would be 12 + 2-12 = 14-24. So quite noticeable change.

Yup...which is why I want to call it something like "Soft Crits", it's on average average better than just rolling damage dice twice but not as good as the default improved crit damage as it doesn't guarantee at least max weapon damage.

With this "soft critical" option set, a longsword could potentially only do 3+1=4 damage on a crit (instead of the extension default minimum of 8+1=9) while that loser with a mace could potentially do 5-6 on a normal hit (strength bonuses not withstanding).

[Slagmoth]

Well, my extension (with the default option set) guarantees at least full normal damage + any crit damage rolled so do you mean you want an option to do MAX(normal damage) and HALF(MAX(crit damage))?

I may not be understanding so let me give an example and see if this is what you are talking about...

Barbarian uses a greatsword (2d6)
Barbarian crits
RAW says that the damage is 2d6 (normal weapon damage) + 2d6 (critical weapon damage) : RANGE = 4-24

With my extension, you can set the option to do:
1) MAX(2d6) + 2d6 = 12 (normal) + 2-12 critical : RANGE = 14-24
2) 2d6 + MAX(2d6) = 2-12 (normal) + 12 critical : RANGE = 14-24
3) MAX(2d6 + 2d6) = 12 normal + 12 critical : RANGE = 24

Are you asking for an option that would do any of the following:
1a) HALF(2d6) + 2d6 = 1-6 (normal) + 2-12 (critical) : RANGE = 3-18
2a) 2d6 + HALF(2d6) = 2-12 (normal) + 1-6 (critical) : RANGE = 3-18
3a) HALF(2d6 + 2d6) = 1-6 (normal) + 1-6 (critical) : RANGE = 2-12

OR

1b) HALF(MAX(2d6)) + 2d6 = 6 (normal) + 2-12 (critical) : RANGE = 8-18
2b) 2d6 + HALF(MAX(2d6)) = 2-12 (normal) + 6 (critical) : RANGE = 8-18
3b) HALF(MAX(2d6 + 2d6)) = 6 (normal) + 6 (critical) : RANGE = 12

OR

1c) Any combination of MAX() and HALF(MAX()) so you could do MAX(2d6) + HALF(MAX(2d6)) = 12 (normal) + 6 (critical) = 18. Like the option would be HalfMax for either normal dice or critical dice or both?

I can add whatever options, but any of the "a" or "b" options seem to nerf the damage instead of buff the damage.

Or are none of those what you are asking?

Let me know and I'll see what I can do!

So, we had two suggestions... one was that if the overall value rolled is less than the max base damage the value would increase to max weapon damage.

So, if you roll 1, 1, 1, 1 on a greatsword critical it would just default to 12. This is likely more complicated though.

What my original suggestion was is that instead of (for the greatsword with the same roll) 6, 6, 1, 1 +x which would be a bit more than maximum each time it is not the average. The average each crit with your current system is 19 +x 6, 6, 3.5, 3.5 +x so your damage will be very much higher on average on a critical. If instead you floor the first set of dice to 3, 3, 3.5, 3.5 +x the average is 13 +x which is closer to the max weapon damage.

So, to simplify:

Average greatsword hit is 7 + X with a crit it is 14 + X
With your ext the average with a crit is 19 + X
With the ability to choose half dice that drops to 13 + X

I originally wanted to use this until one of my players pointed out the skew of averages to the high end and it is a bit too high for our game as we play grittier with very few punches pulled by me as the DM and sometimes fewer hit points than average.

Obviously, we are but one table and if it wasn't for the Forge obfuscating all the extension code now, I likely would have just changed it myself for just our game.

Hope this made the idea clearer. No worries if it is not something anyone else wants.

[TheoGeek]

Thanks for the clarification!

Also, you are more than welcome to try to make the changes yourself if you want (as long as you don't upload them or anything). My extensions get installed into the data folder, not the vault, so you can unzip them and check them out. I prototyped something last night and got something working, but I'd like to improve it a bit based on your feedback.

I assume you'd also want to, let's say "raise the floor" for all damage types on a crit (my extension defaults to "don't max critical dice, max normal damage dice, max effect dice) but those can be tweaked. I'm thinking of an option like "Soft Critical" or "Raise the floor" that would "modify" other options (except "double damage" where it would double everything last) such that if you had one of the "max" damage options selected, rather than maxxing that damage class, it would raise the floor to half the number of sides on the damage die.

Hmmm...no I'm thinking...this might lead to changing the options altogether so there would be something like "Normal Damage: ", with options of "Standard, Maximize, Raise Floor" (defaulted as appropriate). This would be the same for "Critical Damage" and "Effect Damage"...honestly, that would make some of the internals easier anyway so I'll just do it to clean up my code. It would also make it easier to add other options like "Lower Ceiling" where you might want to maximize the damage dice but cap the critical damage that could be done to half the number of sides (so a 1,1,1,1 would be 6,6,1,1 and a 1,1,6,6 would be 6,6,3,3 = 18 instead of 24, or even 1,1,6,6 = 3,3,3,3 for 12 instead of 18!)

This would also allow a combination of any of the die modifications for each damage class (normal, critical, effect).

So with ...

Normal Damage: Raise Floor
Critical Damage: Raise Floor

... then a 1,1,1,1 would be 3,3,3,3 = 12.

Or with ...

Normal Damage: Raise Floor
Critical Damage: Standard

... then a 1,1,1,1 would be 3,3,1,1 = 8.

How bout that?

I'm always up for a good coding exercise!

[MrDDT]

What my original suggestion was is that instead of (for the greatsword with the same roll) 6, 6, 1, 1 +x which would be a bit more than maximum each time it is not the average. The average each crit with your current system is 19 +x 6, 6, 3.5, 3.5 +x so your damage will be very much higher on average on a critical. If instead you floor the first set of dice to 3, 3, 3.5, 3.5 +x the average is 13 +x which is closer to the max weapon damage.

So, to simplify:

Average greatsword hit is 7 + X with a crit it is 14 + X
With your ext the average with a crit is 19 + X
With the ability to choose half dice that drops to 13 + X

That info is partly incorrect.

AVG crit hit with a GS standard rules = 3.5x4 = 14
AVG crit hit with a GS max first dice = 12+3.5x2= 19
AVG crit hit with a GS min first dice 1/2 (really 3) = 4x2+3.5x2 = 15

Why is it 4x2? Because (3+3+3+4+5+6)/6 =4. Which is the odds of what you would get on a min 3 on the first dice.


I think for me as a DM and a Player. I know you hit that crit, you hate seeing a 2 damage total roll for something like a longsword or something.
So however, the max first dice on a crit is also very deadly when its always going to be a big hit, as you can see avg is 19 for a GS. Thats like BOOM, so even if you get a "bad" crit, with max first on a GS, you looking at 14 damage, which is not massive for a GS crit, but it doesn't feel bad at all. But it also as a DM can be very harmful for people who are made as a crit fisher or when you have a lower-level party and crits can happen.

Personally, I think I would use the 1/2 rule because the min damage is the major factor. With the 1/2 (soft crit) rule, it would make it so min GS damage would be 8 damage instead of 4. This is where it really shines to me. It just feels so bad when you hit a crit and end up with 4 damage.

[TheoGeek]

It just feels so bad when you hit a crit and end up with 4 damage.

Agreed...Something just seems off about a fighter critting with a GS doing the same damage as a guy with a dart.

I get the whole random thing but c'mon man!

[TheoGeek]

OK, I updated to version 8.0 on the forge.

I added options for all damage dice (normal weapon damage dice, effect damage dice, critical damage dice, and special critical damage dice (from the Nat20 extension)) to set their modifiers to:

"Standard" : no modification
"Maximize" : set the die roll value to EQUAL the number of sides of the die rolled
"Raise Floor" : set the die roll value to be AT LEAST 1/2 of the number of sides of the die rolled
"Lower Ceiling" : set the die roll value to be AT MOST 1/2 of the number of sides of the die rolled

I tested it a lot and it worked for all my test cases.

If you find something odd, let me know!

Thanks for the suggestions!