Generic Actions extension for Fantasy Grounds Unity 5E ruleset

[SilentRuin]

- removed as I remembered it does not count restrained as one of the limits for those attacks/casts -

[4wire]

- removed as I remembered it does not count restrained as one of the limits for those attacks/casts -

Hum. Strange. Maybe both messages were coming from Grappled then.

One modest proposal: Instead of multiple switches for each option, maybe it would be simpler to have just a single switch for RAW 5e versus your house rule of the grappled condition? That way we could use your extension fully.

[SilentRuin]

Hum. Strange. Maybe both messages were coming from Grappled then.

One modest proposal: Instead of multiple switches for each option, maybe it would be simpler to have just a single switch for RAW 5e versus your house rule of the grappled condition? That way we could use your extension fully.

Ok we are evidently both talking about different things. Let me try and clarify...

Grappled is not Restrained. These are not "my" house rules.

Restrained is not something I limit you over in my extension. If you have a Restrained effect - my extension will not care. The game will take care of this. If you have Restrained in your effects - its really this...

Restrained; GRANTADVATK, DISATK, DISSAV: dexterity

Restrained also puts your movement to 0. It is to much of a grey area to manage for my code so I don't use it as a limit at all - that is up to the DM.

Restrained can be applied by

• Spells. A number of spells impose the restrained condition.
  
• Net. The net is a special ranged weapon that can be a used to restrain a creature.
  
• Magic Items. There are some magic items that allow you to restrain a creature.

I believe even a feat (with a grappler?) can allow grapple to turn into Restrained.

But Restrained IS NOT Grappled. I only support limits if you are Grappled.

A successful Grapple means you just physically gained control of a PC/NPC with your strength. You can move them around at half speed, and they DO NOT attack anything until they BREAK out of the grapple. That includes spells, as you are under physical control of the "grappler" and not going to be able to "do things" or "concentrate" until you break out of their physical control.

What I've described above? I do not believe are house rules - but the D&D 5E rules.

As far as if you feel a situation is an exception? Turn off the option for whatever is the exception. I can imagine NO exception where a physical attack could come into play when grappled. But if you have your own house rules that don't require concentration for spells/psionics - then that is YOUR house rules. Not some D&D 5e set of rules.

Gist is - I give you that option to work around by turning off specific attack limits if your house rules allow it - which can then be turned right back on.

I agree - if they are my house rules or my interpretation of the rules - I'd give an exception to just that Grappled "effect". But I do not believe that is the case here. Grappled effect will prevent you from doing a number of things. Restrained (which I do not even limit - game does that) will not.

Apply the right effect - for the right situation - never think of them as the SAME. They are not.

[Also, you are on V1.3 correct? Check DMsG for the latest version there have been several edits since I first put it out and its possible some early one had restrained - though I really don't remember - only why it is NOT a thing I can limit.]

[4wire]

I was talking about grappled indeed, not restrained.

And originally was really looking for your interpretation of grappled as well. I understand grappled and restrained are different.

The RAW are :
"Grappled
A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition).
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell."

Sage Advice:
"If a creature is grappled, can it still attack and use its
special abilities? The grappled condition limits movement,
not attacks, spellcasting, and the like. That said, many grappling abilities, such as a roper’s tendril attack, also deliver
effects like the restrained condition."

Again, not trying to win an argument, just trying to understand your interpretation.

Cheers!

[SilentRuin]

I was talking about grappled indeed, not restrained.

And originally was really looking for your interpretation of grappled as well. I understand grappled and restrained are different.

The RAW are :
"Grappled
A grappled creature's speed becomes 0, and it can't benefit from any bonus to its speed.
The condition ends if the grappler is incapacitated (see the condition).
The condition also ends if an effect removes the grappled creature from the reach of the grappler or grappling effect, such as when a creature is hurled away by the thunderwave spell."

Sage Advice:
"If a creature is grappled, can it still attack and use its
special abilities? The grappled condition limits movement,
not attacks, spellcasting, and the like. That said, many grappling abilities, such as a roper’s tendril attack, also deliver
effects like the restrained condition."

Again, not trying to win an argument, just trying to understand your interpretation.

Cheers!

Understood. I'm just trying to understand your interpretation of RAW (the rules as written).

Sage Advice is not RAW.

In no place that I've found is that Sage Advice in the rules. If I read the rules as written, Grappled is a strength overpowering of the player as I described. You can move them half speed at your control (0 is not interpreting the wording correctly). And as Concentration is written - there is no way a Grappled effect (actively being overpowered) is not going to break concentration. As Attacks are written - there is no way being physically controlled (a successful grapple) will allow you attacks.

Sage Advice is dead wrong IMHO in relation to RAW. Just the way I'm seeing it.

Can you justify being physically overpowered by someone - in their physical control - and them allowing you to use a weapon or concentrate on a spell (or move to do one) or psionics?

I cannot. Not in my wildest imaginations. Nor do I see this in RAW PHB description when taken in context with use of a weapon and concentration.

Hence, any other interpretation is a "house rules" thing from my interpretation of RAW.

If you can convince me that - as I've described in this post and my last - how a grappled PC/NPC can maintain concentration or wield a weapon - I will add an option to make grappled subject to that interpretation of the rules. I imagine their arms immobilize and they can be frog marched at half speed wherever the grappler wants.

Otherwise...

It's almost like Restrained is what you consider grappled. Not the same.

[And I understand even RAW is subject to interpretation so its entirely possible I'm in the minority - but I'm open to be convinced you can control their movement but not their ability to do anything else.]

[As we argue this I even begin to wonder if I should code successful grapple to break any (C) effects on the target rather than leaving it up to the DM to do that.]

[4wire]

Understood. I'm just trying to understand your interpretation of RAW (the rules as written).

Sage Advice is not RAW.

... snip ...

Hence, any other interpretation is a "house rules" thing from my interpretation of RAW.

If you can convince me that - as I've described in this post and my last - how a grappled PC/NPC can maintain concentration or wield a weapon - I will add an option to make grappled subject to that interpretation of the rules. I imagine their arms immobilize and they can be frog marched at half speed wherever the grappler wants.

Well... We use Sage Advice (which is official) as argument breakers, at least in my groups. If you prefer using your interpretation, I'm fully comfortable with that!

Not going to try and convince you, your opinion is valid but sometimes rules take shortcuts to simplify and balance the different classes. I prefer to use the official text as much as I can. Easier to play with different groups.

I've just commented out the grappled check in your code and it's perfect for us!

Thanks for the fun exchange dude!

[LordEntrails]

I'll add my view...

RAW says nothing about losing concentration, or being unable to attack. Any interpretation of a grapple that adds those caveats is a houserule. The RAW description of grapple could have easily said that it broke concentration, or that it prevented attacks or other actions. But it doesn't, so RAW a grapple does not.

Now, how do I envision this? Instead of some 'grapple' like a wrestler where the grappled creatures is wrapped up completely and can not move any appendages, a grapple also includes the 'simple' case where a creature wraps a tentacle around the waist of a person and prevents them from moving. Since that is all the grappled condition does, reduce movement speed to 0, that's all the grappled condition is trying to represent.

Now, I can certainly see other abilities or conditions that do more than a RAW grapple, but that's not imo relevant to a discussion of the grappled condition in 5E.

[SilentRuin]

I'll add my view...

RAW says nothing about losing concentration, or being unable to attack. Any interpretation of a grapple that adds those caveats is a houserule. The RAW description of grapple could have easily said that it broke concentration, or that it prevented attacks or other actions. But it doesn't, so RAW a grapple does not.

Now, how do I envision this? Instead of some 'grapple' like a wrestler where the grappled creatures is wrapped up completely and can not move any appendages, a grapple also includes the 'simple' case where a creature wraps a tentacle around the waist of a person and prevents them from moving. Since that is all the grappled condition does, reduce movement speed to 0, that's all the grappled condition is trying to represent.

Now, I can certainly see other abilities or conditions that do more than a RAW grapple, but that's not imo relevant to a discussion of the grappled condition in 5E.

So do you envision no disadvantage to being grappeled? It does not "say" anything about that either.

And grappled allows you to MOVE a grappled opponent - so that kind of breaks movement reduced to 0.

As in most things in the rules, it must be read in context with other rules. The 0 movement is under your OWN movement power. Restrained would be more of a an absolute 0 movement.

Either way - I can add the option to make grappled have no effects to combat at all if people are actually doing that.

It's crazy in my opinion to treat being grappled as "free to attack" with no problems but they can be dragged around wherever you want them to be dragged, and their concentration is intact. Just because the words are not explicitly stated - but things that break concentration and prevent attacks are elsewhere in other context.

I apply common sense interpretations in most rules I encounter and so they are in the extensions (all those other effects you can be in and limit your attacks etc.).

[SilentRuin]

Well... We use Sage Advice (which is official) as argument breakers, at least in my groups. If you prefer using your interpretation, I'm fully comfortable with that!

Not going to try and convince you, your opinion is valid but sometimes rules take shortcuts to simplify and balance the different classes. I prefer to use the official text as much as I can. Easier to play with different groups.

I've just commented out the grappled check in your code and it's perfect for us!

Thanks for the fun exchange dude!

Why I commented the code so heavily - so that could be done

As it stands someone else has taken your side so I'll probably go ahead and add an option to discount grappled as a limiting effect on attacks.

Still nuts in my opinion so have no limits or disadvantage to being grappled just because they didn't mention it - but context shows concentration and attacks would be seriously hindered.

Still - even if I never use the switch others obviously will. Go figure

[SilentRuin]

Alright - option is out there in V1.4 - Page 1 of this has been updated - DMsG has been updated.

Nice if someone tested it and let me know it actually worked.