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  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by damned View Post
    2. CT interaction is designed for GM use, not player use. Players can target on the map - they can also drag and drop attacks and damage onto the CT but they cannot use the targeting widget.
    The problem here is that players can't drag & drop spell attacks, so they can't do any targeting with spells, they have to ask the GM. But the even bigger problem is that the GM can't drag & drop NPC attacks in the CT, or use the targeting widget for attacks, so there's no actual way to perform NPC attacks AT ALL. I understand that Symbaroum is a little different than most RPGs in that the GM never rolls dice, just the players, but the GM still needs to be able to initiate an attack for the player to respond to. At the moment the attack process is not automated, it has to be done manually (although the damage rolls are automated, which is good). Simon said that it's

    Not really possible due to a lot of reaction mystical powers and similar abilities.

    I'm really not sure what that means. Surely it would be possible to have whatever those ability effects are available as Effects in the CT too? As I pointed out in my original post, in the Symbaroum ruleset the Effects and Modifiers windows currently contain no data at all, which we found very weird. For example, Savage Worlds has effects like Distracted and Entangled that can be applied to characters in the CT, so can't the same thing be done here?

    I would consider these fairly fundamental functions in FG and the lack of them was very noticeable in our test session. It was like going back to the old days when we were still using Roll20 :-)
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by rodney418 View Post
    The problem here is that players can't drag & drop spell attacks, so they can't do any targeting with spells, they have to ask the GM. But the even bigger problem is that the GM can't drag & drop NPC attacks in the CT, or use the targeting widget for attacks, so there's no actual way to perform NPC attacks AT ALL. I understand that Symbaroum is a little different than most RPGs in that the GM never rolls dice, just the players, but the GM still needs to be able to initiate an attack for the player to respond to. At the moment the attack process is not automated, it has to be done manually (although the damage rolls are automated, which is good). Simon said that it's

    Not really possible due to a lot of reaction mystical powers and similar abilities.

    I'm really not sure what that means. Surely it would be possible to have whatever those ability effects are available as Effects in the CT too? As I pointed out in my original post, in the Symbaroum ruleset the Effects and Modifiers windows currently contain no data at all, which we found very weird. For example, Savage Worlds has effects like Distracted and Entangled that can be applied to characters in the CT, so can't the same thing be done here?

    I would consider these fairly fundamental functions in FG and the lack of them was very noticeable in our test session. It was like going back to the old days when we were still using Roll20 :-)
    Not discounting your concerns and I have never used the Symbaroum ruleset - I was just replying to very specific points - and mostly to Simpe

    Are you not using a map for your combat? If you are using a map is there anything stopping you from targeting via the map?
    There are a few systems that dont have GM rolls. I run Dungeon World and it does complicate things when the NPCs inflict damage.
    Effects are non trivial and they get more and more complex when Effects stack and/or cancel each other out etc.
    SaWo has a significantly larger player base, and hence a bigger revenue base, so it will get more coding effort for that reason alone.

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  3. #13
    Of course SW is a much more popular system, it's been around a LOT longer, and there's more people developing for it, I understand that. I'm not saying that I expect the Symbaroum ruleset to be as polished as the SW one. I'm just using it as an example of an FG system that I am very familiar with, and things that work in that ruleset.

    I wasn't using a map in the Symbaroum test we did, but since map targeting is basically an extension of CT targeting I can't see how that would work any differently. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be any drag & drop of spell targeting or NPC attacks at all.

    Currently the NPC attack procedure as I understand it is:


    1. GM drags targeting reticule in the CT from the current NPC to selected PC
    2. GM decides what modifiers apply and adds them up mentally
    3. GM tells PC that NPC is attacking and tells PC what the the total modifier is
    4. PC manually inputs the modifier number into the little modifier box at the bottom left of the screen
    5. PC double clicks on the Defence box in their character sheet
    6. Dice are rolled to check if the attack succeeds or not


    Now that is completely doable, and it's quite similar to how it would be done around a real table, but it feels really fiddly on a VTT. If there's a better / easier way of doing it in the Symbaroum ruleset, I would love to know - I'm not ruling out that maybe I'm just not understanding something correctly here.

    Whereas the expected behaviour in FG (at least for me) is:


    1. (Optional) GM drags from Effects or Modifiers windows on to the PC in the CT to set up applicable situational modifiers
    2. GM drags the NPC weapon or spell attack on to PC in the CT
    3. Dice are rolled to check if the attack succeeds or not


    Note: the first step is listed as optional because quite a lot of the time there are no situational modifiers, or if there are, they often remain unchanged from one combat round to the next.

    I think it's pretty clear that the second procedure is a lot faster and slicker than the first one. That's not to say that the first one doesn't work, but it's a pain in the *** when you are trying to keep a VTT game moving. That level of automation is why I bought FG in the first place instead of sticking with Roll20.
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  4. #14
    In Symbaroum the players roll all the dice. So far I have run dozens of sessions and nobody complained, as this is the spirit of the game. The game system definitely does not prevent you to make NPCs roll, after all they have the same rules as PCs when it comes to the calculation target number, but I consider this optional and quality of life improvement, to reduce the amount of rolls a player does.

    Don't get me wrong - I like the idea.

    What you suggest is doable, but puts even more work on the GM. Symbaroum is very complex game to automate, as it is based on exceptions, rather than rules. I would prefer to get APG rather than this. There is more important bug to fix related to the calculation of the advantage and usage of modifiers box.
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  5. #15
    So far I have run dozens of sessions and nobody complained

    And that's great - for you. But my players definitely didn't like it, so now someone IS complaining.


    The game system definitely does not prevent you to make NPCs roll

    As I have pointed out several times now, you can't currently automate NPC attacks. If there is a way to do it that I have missed, I would love to know.


    I consider this optional and quality of life improvement

    That's up to you, but I consider it fundamental functionality in Fantasy Grounds. That kind of automation is why I bought the FG software in the first place. And it's what I expect in every officially supported ruleset.


    Symbaroum is very complex game to automate

    One of the things I love about Symbaroum is that the rules are very simple compared to most other RPGs. So I find it weird that people seem to be saying that it's very complex. I really don't get that at all.


    I would prefer to get APG rather than this.

    I would prefer to have both :-) But I understand your point. In any software project there's always a tradeoff between fixing bugs, adding features, and creating new DLC. I'm not Project Managing this, I'm just here reporting on issues as honestly as I can and saying what is important to me. If something else is more important to you, then that's great too. Both of our opinions are important.






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  6. #16
    But my players definitely didn't like it, so now someone IS complaining.
    So... you guys play a game that by design requires players to roll all the dice (like Numenera) and you find this problematic and now this is problem with the ruleset? I would say it is wrong expectation here. Don't get me wrong - I agree with you that such optional feature would be nice.

    As I have pointed out several times now, you can't currently automate NPC attacks.
    Yes, because in the game all rolls are done by the PCs As I said above, nice to have definitely.

    One of the things I love about Symbaroum is that the rules are very simple compared to most other RPGs. So I find it weird that people seem to be saying that it's very complex. I really don't get that at all.
    You are right - the principles of the game are simple and rules are easy to learn and use. At the table. The problem is when you have to program this. Computers are not smart in general. Every ability and spell have 3 levels that change how certain things are rolled add extra options to a roll. This means that in the code, you have to handle many cases as exceptions, i.e. code explicitly for that. Also, some talents have block of text that state you can do either this or that on Novice/Adept/master level, such as the Wrestling ability from APG. This is what I mean that it is very complex. The code you need to push to handle all possible options - if-then-else and swtich constructs.
    As person who has been doing some coding for FG I can tell you that while this is possible, it is not feasible from commercial point of view. Also in some cases this will not be desirable, some groups want to have control over what is happening and have house rules that do this or that, therefore full automation might be working against you.
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  7. #17
    Another bug report:


    1. Twin Attack is changing Main Hand damage correctly as it ranks up, but not Off-hand damage.
    2. The character sheet lists Maximal Toughness. This should read Maximum Toughness.
    3. Size and Reach values in the CT don't make any sense to me. PCs default to 5 in each category, whereas NPCs default to 2 in each. Am I missing something? (See screenshot)
    4. Flat Effect diamonds in the CT cover over the green Add Effect button (at least they do in the current Unity version).
    5. Is there a way to enable the optional Critical Damage rule (rulebook p.178) and Perfect Hits & Fumbled Defence rule (rulebook p.179)? I like these options a lot and would like to be able to use them.


    Annotation 2020-04-21 120003.png
    Last edited by rodney418; April 21st, 2020 at 13:04.
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  8. #18
    So... you guys play a game that by design requires players to roll all the dice (like Numenera) and you find this problematic and now this is problem with the ruleset?

    Well... ALL RPGs require players to roll the dice! FG is designed to automate all the bookkeeping associated with that. That's kind of the whole point of the software in the first place. My issue with this ruleset is not that players have to push a button to roll dice to Defend against an Attack, it's all of the other stuff that the GM and player have to do BEFORE they can push that button, as listed in the procedure I laid out above. Of course you can argue that this level of automation is not essential, but by the same logic you might as well argue that we could just get rid of the CT entirely and do everything like we do around a real table. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT FANTASY GROUNDS IS ABOUT. If I wanted something that emulated the tabletop experience exactly I'd be using Tabletop Simulator, which emulates a real tabletop experience way better than FG does (and does it much cheaper too). But I use Fantasy Grounds because it's an app that does complex stuff for me so I can just get on with playing.

    I can tell you that while this is possible, it is not feasible from commercial point of view.

    Now that is an argument that I can understand. I've managed plenty of projects where it came down to that. I get it. And if I can't have everything I would like to have, ok, fine. I'll deal with that. I just don't want to be told that wanting to be able to automate an NPC attack is somehow weird or wrong when it's something that every other ruleset does as basic functionality in FG already. It SHOULD be a valid player expectation. If it's not working for specific resource or ruleset reasons, then fine. Add it to the list of Nice to Have, maybe take another look at it in a year's time, and for now get on with fixing the other stuff that can be fixed given current resources.

    However also understand that from MY commercial point of view, I paid $25 for this ruleset, and for my $25 I expect a certain level of functionality and reasonably bug-free operation. So far I am genuinely unsure if I am getting my money's worth, which is very disappointing, but I'm willing to help report bugs if I have a decent expectation that someone is going to take care to fix them. That's my commercial point of view, and it's just as valid as anyone else's.
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  9. #19
    We are not in disagreement here. I feel I am less demanding and have less expectations. I am sure the bugs will be fixed and this quality of life can be implemented.
    The past is a rudder to guide us, not an anchor to hold us back.

  10. #20
    And we have an update!
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