STAR TREK 2d20
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  1. #11
    I'd just like to chime in with the fact that many Windows devices also have screens of similar sharpness.
    Less, proportionally, than the number of Macs but we are out there.

    I'm not too bothered by the pixelated text being harder to read (my eyesight is very good), but it would be nice to improve on once the bugs are worked out and would likely help with eyestrain (which seems much worse in Unity after a 6 hour session).

  2. #12
    Some perfectly reasonable replies, thanks folks. (Except for the one guy trying to start a platform war.)

    Just to explain more clearly, because there is some lack of understanding: “Retina” is a specific OS screen mode on macOS, that invokes a bunch of particular things. It does not have a simple direct correlation on Windows; the operating systems just work differently. On Mac, you can be at the same number of pixels either in retina mode, or not, and they are radically different. “Retina” is not only a branding buzzword for high resolution. (Although of course Apple gets mileage from the branding, I am just saying that it also has a specific technical meaning.)

    When an app is not Retina savvy, running it on a Mac in Retina mode gives a similar effect to running the same monitor/screen in Windows, but at half its native resolution. Everything is the right size, but blurry. So making things bigger is not a helpful solution, as they are already the “right” size.

    On Mac, one can get the same effect as running the app on Windows—by using semi-hidden system options or third-party tools to set the screen res to be the same resolution, but non-Retina.

    Doing that while FGU is running does not help. The app just gets very small. Crisp, though.

    BUT, doing the screen res change to non-Retina 4K, and then launching the app does something very interesting. The app internal features run as if it was a Retina app running at the previous settings! That is, it is scaled to the right size, with the right number of pixels, and twice as big as when I changed the res after. Text elements are text-based and crisp, and other stuff seems tolerable so far.

    Of course, the OS resolution is different, so there are issues like the system menus are microscopic and the mouse is twice as hard to move. But clearly the underpinnings are here. Basically, it seems the app does have a Retina mode on macOS, it just isn’t wired up correctly right now. I don’t know exactly how hard this is to fix, but I suspect it is not crazy hard. Certainly nowhere near the absurd amount of work of supporting Retina mode from scratch if you haven’t already been working on it.

    I took the advice of just emailing support, but I will have to update them with this additional news.

    I probably won’t be posting here again. This is supposed to be a leisure activity — I don’t need to be attacked because somebody doesn’t like my choice of hardware.

  3. #13
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    Thanks for the details. Wish I had an answer for you, but suspect it is just that up until recently FG hasn't needed to be savvy in other platforms. I'm sure it is a learning process for them as it was for me.

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  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by tphinney View Post
    Some perfectly reasonable replies, thanks folks. (Except for the one guy trying to start a platform war.)

    Just to explain more clearly, because there is some lack of understanding: “Retina” is a specific OS screen mode on macOS, that invokes a bunch of particular things. It does not have a simple direct correlation on Windows; the operating systems just work differently. On Mac, you can be at the same number of pixels either in retina mode, or not, and they are radically different. “Retina” is not only a branding buzzword for high resolution. (Although of course Apple gets mileage from the branding, I am just saying that it also has a specific technical meaning.)

    When an app is not Retina savvy, running it on a Mac in Retina mode gives a similar effect to running the same monitor/screen in Windows, but at half its native resolution. Everything is the right size, but blurry. So making things bigger is not a helpful solution, as they are already the “right” size.

    On Mac, one can get the same effect as running the app on Windows—by using semi-hidden system options or third-party tools to set the screen res to be the same resolution, but non-Retina.

    Doing that while FGU is running does not help. The app just gets very small. Crisp, though.

    BUT, doing the screen res change to non-Retina 4K, and then launching the app does something very interesting. The app internal features run as if it was a Retina app running at the previous settings! That is, it is scaled to the right size, with the right number of pixels, and twice as big as when I changed the res after. Text elements are text-based and crisp, and other stuff seems tolerable so far.

    Of course, the OS resolution is different, so there are issues like the system menus are microscopic and the mouse is twice as hard to move. But clearly the underpinnings are here. Basically, it seems the app does have a Retina mode on macOS, it just isn’t wired up correctly right now. I don’t know exactly how hard this is to fix, but I suspect it is not crazy hard. Certainly nowhere near the absurd amount of work of supporting Retina mode from scratch if you haven’t already been working on it.
    I took the advice of just emailing support, but I will have to update them with this additional news.
    I probably won’t be posting here again. This is supposed to be a leisure activity — I don’t need to be attacked because somebody doesn’t like my choice of hardware.
    Windows has support for that too. Retina is just apple's brand name for displaying higher-res assets at a smaller size than proportional to the same asset at lower res. This results in a higher final dpi which looks more sharp. Making Unity work with that would mean a lot more overhead considering that they are already maxing out their computational budget with the medium-to-low-resolution maps we're using currently.

  5. #15
    Hi, all!

    Just chiming in here as a new user.

    I can see that most people replying to this thread are not aware of the true meaning of retina. It is not just a brand name, it is not just a matter of higher resolution. It should be rather interpreted as a sub-resolution per pixel. Upscaling resolution might in the end give the same result for graphics, but it won't for text. And let this exactly be the point of retina screens: crisp text.

    I have a macbook at home but am also working full-time on a Windows machine at work (though not during these Corona days ��). And I can tell you: there is no Windows equivalent of retina. Windows can indeed support high-resolution screens, by upscaling the GUI to compensate for that (I have a 4K monitor at work so I know the drill). Though that's only for the Windows gui; opening a program (and whatever splash screen it has) will again be tiny until you change the settings inside that program. Retina, on the other hand, is hard-coded in the OS. For instance, the current resolution of my 13" macbook is 1280x800 and looks exactly the same (scale-wise) like what you'd get from a 1280x800 screen on windows. However, every pixel is internally divided by 4 to get a much sharper image (and crisp text). The OS then takes care of how the subdivision works. It was implemented like this back in 2012 such that older software (not yet "retina proof") would still run smoothly without resolution quirks - it would just appear less sharp. That old software believes the screen is just 1280x800 pixels.

    Now believe me: for a mac user not having retina support IS a dealbreaker. The last time I encountered a program that did not support retina, was in 2015. And now comes the irony: it was Fantasy Grounds which I wanted to give a test (I'd actually forgotten this, but was reminded now after recovering my password from my last login in February 2015). Already then, this was one of the reasons for me not to use it (also because I didn't really need a virtual tabletop), as I did not have a single other program that wasn't retina-ready (after all, it had been around for three years already). When every piece of your computer is sharp and crisp as hell, looking at fantasy grounds really hurts your eyes. It is extremely disappointing to see that after 5 years, mac hardware is still not really supported.

    Unity was originally developed on macos. Hence "Making Unity work with that would mean a lot more overhead" is nonsense here, it natively supports retina since a long time now. We're talking decennia-scale. All unity programs I've ever seen or tried, support retina. I'd even go as far as to say that making unity software that doesn't support retina, feels as if it's done on purpose to make a statement. All Steam games I own support retina. And to be fair, "mac supported" on Steam often means just coding a wrapper around it to translate windows instructions to macos instructions - severely hurting performance - and adding retina support. It is the minimum baseline. But even that can't be delivered apparently.

    Now that I'm gonna move to virtual RPG for the first time due to Corona, I just spent a few hours trying to decide between Roll20 and FG. I made my choice, wanted to invest in FG, just to be disappointed by FG not being able to deliver the bare minimum on a mac graphics-wise. What a shame.

  6. #16
    I appreciate Freddie chiming in about retina support. I am not demanding some kind of special treatment for Mac users, just looking for basic normal behavior from the app. The available options now are a bit rough.

    1) Running with a Mac in its normal screen mode yields horrendous results. Not really tolerable.

    2) Running with /scaleUI 200, PLUS make the Mac try to pretend it is Windows (run screen at native resolution, but non-retina) is ALMOST useable, except:
    - I am running with maximum system-level mouse cursor speed. So switching to non-retina same resolution halves my mouse speed. It also makes all the scroll bars, system-level menus and system interface elements for FGU half-size and hard to use.
    - all OTHER apps on the same screen are pretty much unusable, so heaven help me if I want to do anything else at the same time with that screen (e.g. run SyrinScape for audio, or just do some system-level stuff with files, or...)

    I was planning on running this in my home office with a multi-monitor setup. Then I could have dedicated a screen to FGU. But since my daughter is now also going to be playing locally, my office is not really big enough and I have moved to the dining room. I suppose I could make it work by hooking up an external monitor as well, a bit painful to drag that around, but not impossible.

    I shall still continue to give it a try, but if I were to bet now, I would bet that my conclusion in a week will be to just give up on using FGU for this purpose, unless the devs say they are working on addressing this issue. Contrary to somebody else’s reply, this is NOT just cosmetic. This is usability.

  7. #17
    Just to chime in, running the current build (update and relaunched) on MacOS 10.14.6 on a 2018 MBP, the UI looks fine on the internal display on /scaleUI 100. I haven't run it on an external display however.
    Running in Low Resolution mode (Get info in Finder) doesn't appear to make any difference.

  8. #18
    I agree with the many posts here already that Retina support is not mere cosmesis - it's vital to true cross-platform support, for reasons already outlined. That said, the program is still in beta (it makes my Mac run pretty hot).

    For those of us with non-eagle eyes, fuzzy small text is heartbreaking. Telling me to get a larger monitor for the app is not an appropriate solution eight years on. Technology has moved a lot in the last eight years.

    This needs to be addressed before commercial release. It just does.

    Quote Originally Posted by LordEntrails View Post
    From what I can gather from comments made by the devs, the following are their current priorities;
    1) Ability to run, such as the networking issues we have been seeing recently and the updater problems
    2) Promised features
    3) Performance
    4) cosmetics

    This issue probably falls into the number 4 category. I suspect it is already on their list, but if you want to make sure you can always add it to the wishlist; https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...D-amp-D-Beyond
    Last edited by tcdo; April 13th, 2020 at 17:24.

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