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  1. #51
    Mortar's Avatar
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    Go ahead, load up just one of those images plus the rulebooks a player needs. FGC is well over a decade old, with networking architecture that is showing its age. FGC won't see any more major optimizations which is why they have been working on the Unity client. FGC also doesn't have an intermediate server. The link is between the GM and players only.

    Did you load anything else with those images in your tests?

    FGU is far from optimized at this point and they are still working on bug fixes for it.


    Here are some screenshots of my FGC client with and without a theme. At the start I am using over 500mb without images shared, and you can see what I have opened in my library.



    Add the combat tracker with enemies on it, a map with tokens...
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  2. #52
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    Like I said a few times - Fantasy Grounds is not just about loading images and showing them to players. At least not in 99% of the use cases of most people. Fantasy Grounds is a Virtual Table Top (VTT) that allow you to play RPGs with your friends online. Image sharing is a tiny part of that. There's PC sheets, there's NPC sheets, there's the combat tracker (actually a very key part of Fantasy Grounds), there's reference manuals, there's hundreds of spells, hundreds of feats (in PF2 which seems to be what you're looking at), and many-many more things that FG does and handles than just opening a bunch of images.

    The information we've given you, as I've already mentioned, is based off years of experience running FG in real-world, multi-players, full-on RPG gaming campaigns that run over many sessions and end up with thousands of data records being shared, opened, accessed, etc..

    We're trying to guide you, "as a new user", to get the best out of the current FG application that can easily be overloaded in a real-world gaming environment. Especially based off the massive image files you were quoting - so, yes (sorry), based off what you expected FG (a 32-bit application) to handle we did have to try to manage your expectations. And you seem to be taking exception to this. And, yes, we have given you "the speed limit", but you've chosen to ignore that.

    Quite a few *very experienced* FG users have tried to give you real-world experience feedback on how to use FG reliably in this thread. And, I'm sorry, all you do is either ignore that hard gained experience or complain about us not giving you (a brand new user with, you admit, very little experience of this application) the benefit of the doubt - when all of your "testing" is not actually in a real-world, multi-session environment; and the images you keep referring to are too big for Fantasy Grounds. Too big! Please listen to the many people trying to help you, otherwise you will experience issues - not in your simulated testing, but soon in a real-world gaming situation - which is the last place you want to start having issues.

    The bottom line is, try to at least take on board what we're saying. We're not being negative, we're being realistic. We have thousands of hours of FG gaming experience, and tens-of-thousands of FG forums posts - a lot of which involve helping users out with various issiues - incuding when their 2 year campaign has crashed and died because they overloaded the system, for example. Yes, this does happen.

    Hey, if you think you know better, then go nuts and good luck to you. Otherwise, please take on board what we're saying. And, also, please stop complaining about people who are being realistic and trying to help you. Yes - we're trying to help you avoid the mistakes and pitfalls that a lot of us have experienced in the past.

    Your choice.
    Last edited by Trenloe; December 7th, 2019 at 00:46.
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  3. #53
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    Perhaps instead of thinking of your analogy as we are suggesting you drive your car at a walking pace, instead we are pointing out the Speed Limit. Which in a car is a Recommendation, not a requirement. A speed limit is there not because in any given situation your car is going to explode, you are going to lose control or their is a collision that is going to happen. Rather a speed limit is a speed that is decided is safe for the vast majority of drivers in the vast majority of vehicles in the vast majority of traffic conditions will be able to operate safely.

    Guess what? Even when people follow the speed limits, accidents still happen. Guess what? Lots and lots of people drive faster than the speed limit everyday and never get in accidents. Perhaps that is because they are more aware, or drive a better car, or traffic conditions are above average or they are just lucky. It does not mean that the speed limit does not have value. And when you get in an accident (FG stops revealing an image mask) and you were driving 105mph (sharing 15mb image files) what is the cop going to tell you? "Duh, what did you expect?"

    If you don't like warnings, if you don't want recommendations, if you won't accept advice, don't ask for them. If you want to know exactly what the memory limits of FG are, then they are exactly the same as every other 32-bit application. And if you research that topic you will then know that is is highly dependent upon exactly what operating system version, build, and settings are for that piece of hardware.

    You can choose to work with the software to get the best out of it you can, or you can fight it. That's the same thing I tell users after implementing a $40 million software project. It's the same thing I tell people looking at a $40 VTT.

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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Mortar View Post
    Go ahead, load up just one of those images plus the rulebooks a player needs.
    I did not invest in rulebooks other than the adventure yet. Not being able to handle character sheet printing (for LR2) and seeing the software problems/limitations listed in this thread I am not sure if I should invest more money in it before Unity hits. That being said, I mostly bought it for the tactical console and character organization (including print when I didn't know better). This weekend I will decide about the core rulebook, I already own the PDF, but it's still not cheap.

    FGC is well over a decade old, with networking architecture that is showing its age. FGC won't see any more major optimizations which is why they have been working on the Unity client. FGC also doesn't have an intermediate server. The link is between the GM and players only.
    At less than 4 mbit the networking architecture shows some serious performance problems.

    Did you load anything else with those images in your tests?
    The adventure module, the PF2 playtest rules and Bestiary. I did another test with lots of other stuff opened alongside the large maps, including tokens and the combat tracker.

    lotsofstuff.jpg

    FGU is far from optimized at this point and they are still working on bug fixes for it.
    My hope is that Unity lends itself to some intrinsic optimizations, especially concerning memory management when images are handled. We will see.

  5. #55
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    no one is trying to impose limits on you
    if the large images are working for you and the performance is acceptable for you then go for it

    i cant answer for the devs on the minutiae of your questions but my thoughts are the limitations, including those of graceful error handling or warning, are a combination of:
    engine capability
    development resources
    development priorities

    there are no hard and fast numbers on what can or cant be done because there are no hard coded limits
    the limits are what your combination of gm specs, players specs, network connectivity and engine capability afford

    fg is certainly not perfect but it does its strengths pretty well
    fgu will have improvements in many errors, and continue to gain new improvements over time
    but it will still have a swag of limits and some may be hard limits and others will likely be based on the environment and engine

    please do realise that the people responding to this thread have also been spending their own valuable time and energy to try and answer your questions and provide some guidance

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  6. #56
    Well then, I will give the experienced users the benefit of the doubt and give the software and my own limited tests the doubt.

    This means that I will keep my own images at sane sizes and resolutions, orientated on the prebuild adventure module. This also means that I will not create higher detail images to replace those coming with prebuild adventure module, as it does not seem to be worth the effort then and the prebuild maps are already of considerably better quality than the PDF ones. Work spared.

    I am happy to accept advice and always prefer to work with software instead of fighting it. This does not mean that I accept all designs and implementations, though, and you really are painting a rather bleak picture about the current state of the software. On Monday I will try the combat tracker (especially in comparison to Hero Lab's), that will be decisive for further investments.
    Last edited by Weissrolf; December 7th, 2019 at 02:40.

  7. #57
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    If you have other questions, let us know. We will be happy to help.

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  8. #58

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    Hey, weissrolf, if you are a PF2 fan you should love the ruleset. It is already quite awesome and powerful and the developer has even more spectacular plans for it that he keeps unfolding almost every week.
    The program isnít perfect, but it is nevertheless awesome! And I dare say you will in short time sing itís praises. Nothing else comes close.
    You will absolutely want to have the CRB and other available materials.

  9. #59
    I will keep that in mind. Thank you.

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