Rules Clarification: Spells and Powers with Add Level Even if Untrained

[ShadeRaven]

There was a discussion about this a while back, with some people thinking this meant to add level to the skill check even if it is trained. The wording was very confusing and it allowed for this interpretation. However, this is incorrect for those looking to get an official ruling on the subject.

The intent is that, much like other bonuses to skills, attacks, etc., LEVEL is a non-stacking property (like status and circumstance, for example). Thus, if you are getting your level added to a skill check already, you don't add your level to it again even if there's some working in a power that sounds like it ("and you add your level even if you're untrained" being one such wording that's ambiguous).

Hope that helps clarify how these spells and powers work for anyone else who's come across them and wondered... hrm... do I add level in all cases?

[Trenloe]

Bonuses are all about the type of the bonus. Usually level is added as part of the proficiency bonus (unless untrained) and that is specifically called out as a bonus type on page 444 of the core rules: "When attempting a check that involves something you have some training in, you will also add your proficiency bonus." and shown as a bonus type in the calculation image at the bottom of page 445.

So, if something specifically calls out a bonus related to level of a different bonus type, then this will be in addition to your proficiency bonus. "Level" in and of itself is not a bonus type.

[ShadeRaven]

Yeah, which is why I think there was so much confusion out there with the wording of "and you add your level even if you're untrained", which could be read.. add level regardless if your trained or not. It took some clarification by the devs at Paizo to make it clear that a spell like Illusory Disguise just at +4 to the check for those trained in Deception and not +4 AND +1 per level as was often thought. I think that's why the whole idea of Level being a field that doesn't get double-downed came up, so people could keep that thought straight.