Class and Archetype Module

[Seems]

No prob - sorry I missed that! Really appreciate having the archetypes as a feature!

[bmos]

This has some characters that aren't usable in Unity.
Brawler (Strangler) contains abilities "Brawler’s Cunning" and "Brawler’s Strike" but those directional apostrophes are no good in Unity.
Simple fix is to open the db.xml and replace those characters with the correct ones (but this could always cause other issues).

Also thank you for this module, it is marvelous.

[Blahness98]

I haven't checked here in a while, so I will get those changes corrected as soon as this thing loads in Notepad++

[swest]

(Apologies in advance for a lengthy post, but as anyone that follows any of my posts knows, I am simply unable to say things without extensive background and explanations. I hate leaving things to inference.)

Greetings Blahness98,

As I have been trying to figure out how to do some of this kind of thing myself (i.e., merging/creating Class Archetypes), I was quite gratified to find that you had already done it!!! And seeing the quantity of data that you had to process, I regret not having sufficient wits about me to realize you could probably have used some mundane data-entry assistance. If there is still material that you intend to assimilate, and it turns out to be the case that data-entry is needed, just say the word.

But, for now, I just have a question. I'll couch my question, which actually applies generally, to the specific Class Archetypes I'm currently interested in: Brawler (Bouncer), and Alchemist (Mixologist). And, really, I can limit it even further to just Alchemist (Mixologist).

[edit: Part of this has just been answered for me in the context of a DM, but I'll leave it in, in case there is anything to add.]

I'm curious whether the Alchemist (Mixologist) Archetype appears anyplace other than where I encountered it, which was Inner Sea Taverns? If it does originate from some other document, Taverns appears to have the exact same wording. The only reason I ask that question, though, is because you also provided a Table, "Extracting Mixology Table", whose origin I can't figure, but which appears to be related. So... where did that come from?

But, that's not the real question. If you look at the material in Taverns that establishes the Mixology Archetype, you will find the introductory paragraph for the archetype:

Mixologist (Alchemist Archetype): Certain alchemists focus on mastering the chemical reactions between alcohol and the physical body. Though the powerful potions they brew can have drawbacks, they are at least pleasurable.

Next you find 4 special abilities (which I won't reproduce in their entirety, just the names, and the 'what to do with it' portion - capitalization and emphasis added for clarity):

Alcoholic Alchemy (Su): A mixologist ... blah, blahness, blah. This alters Alchemy and Brew Potion and replaces Mutagen.
Alcoholic Bombs (Su): ... This replaces the Discovery gained at 2nd level.
Alcoholic Resistance (Ex): ... This alters Poison Resistance.
Mixologist Master (Su): ... This replaces Persistent Mutagen.

Now, when I look in "PFRPG - Class and Archetype.mod", and compare and contrast Alchemist and Alchemist (Mixologist), I find that on the Main tab, Alchemy is identical between the two, as is Brew Potion, and Poison Resistance. However, the additional alteration wording, e.g., "This alters poison resistance." is included in the new version.

So, this is my first question: What does it mean for an Archetype to state that, "Special Ability So-and-So, alters [original] Special Ability XYZ"?

I was figuring that I would be changing the wording of the 'altered' Special Abilities to align with the New Special Abilities that 'alters' the originals. Not so?

One reason that this is so interesting to me is that, if the originals were actually 'altered', then they would cease to be what they were before, and would require new Names... right?

[I thought that I would have a couple of additional questions, as I imply above, but I find that the rest of this - specifically, the 'replace' portion - seems to align directly with the Archetype instructions. So, I'll leave it at One (1) question, which I am genuinely curious about.]

Ok, so that's it. One question about 'alters'.

Finally, thanks (!!) again for what must have been a massive amount of work!

- s.west

[Blahness98]

I'm curious whether the Alchemist (Mixologist) Archetype appears anyplace other than where I encountered it, which was Inner Sea Taverns? If it does originate from some other document, Taverns appears to have the exact same wording. The only reason I ask that question, though, is because you also provided a Table, "Extracting Mixology Table", whose origin I can't figure, but which appears to be related. So... where did that come from?

That table is not related. That table goes with the Concocter Alchemist archetype from Potions and Poisons.

Now, when I look in "PFRPG - Class and Archetype.mod", and compare and contrast Alchemist and Alchemist (Mixologist), I find that on the Main tab, Alchemy is identical between the two, as is Brew Potion, and Poison Resistance. However, the additional alteration wording, e.g., "This alters poison resistance." is included in the new version.

More than likely, that was me being lazy and not re-writing the ability. I could say that I left the unmodified ability in there as a reference, but, to be honest I was going for quantity and speed to get these done and out. So, in the summaries on the main pages, you will see the big abilities (Alchemy, Brew Potion, et al) mostly unchanged but changed in the abilities that get placed in the ability section of the character sheet while the smaller abilities get completely replaced.

So, this is my first question: What does it mean for an Archetype to state that, "Special Ability So-and-So, alters [original] Special Ability XYZ"?

I'll answer this with an example using Alchemist and the Mixologist archetype. The base Alchemist at level two gains the Poison Resistance class feature. At level two, a Mixologist Alchemist gains the Alcoholic Resistance class feature (sorry no direct link). In the case of the Mixologist at level two, he would gain the Poison Resistance class feature, but it would be modified by the Alcoholic Resistance class feature. This means the Mixologist can use his bonus to poison saves vs alcohol (which is a drug in Pathfinder) to become less drunk. The bonus to becoming less drunk increases as he levels, but does not allow him to be completely immune to alcohol. The base alchemist would not be able to use his bonus to poison saves for becoming less drunk.

I was figuring that I would be changing the wording of the 'altered' Special Abilities to align with the New Special Abilities that 'alters' the originals. Not so?

If you wanted to go in and re-write the abilities that are replaced to include the important bits from the abilities being modified and make a drag and drop leveling capable class it would make a better product but it will no longer be what Paizo wrote and could raise other issues. Without specific guidelines from Paizo, I personally would not want to write something that differs from the actual product. That just might get kicked back from Paizo in the verification process. My guess that is the reason the other archetypes are not built to be drag and drop and are just the modified/replaced abilities the player has to adjust on their end from the base class just like what you would do with a pen and paper character sheet.

One reason that this is so interesting to me is that, if the originals were actually 'altered', then they would cease to be what they were before, and would require new Names... right?

That is why the new abilities modify the originals in their own call outs. In Pathfinder, specific rules over rule general ones. The specific archetype rule overwrites the general class rule. The original isn't altered so much as overwritten by the specific rule from the archetype. That is why the original is not renamed.

---

Hopefully this assists you in your work with creating your module. Once you get the hang of entering stuff in, it gets easier. It also helps if you are entering in large quantities of archetypes to get a mouse where you can bind macros to buttons (kinda like AutoHotKey but for mouse buttons). Any other questions, feel free to toss them my way and I will see what I can do to assist.

[swest]

I wanted to check in here before going to bed, and I find that you have just annihilated my questions!! Well done.

All of that was exactly what I was hoping to have answered. Thank you!

I'll get going again in the morning, and put all that into practice with what I'm working on now (especially your targeted example on the Mixologist.

Ciao!

p.s. And thanks for clarifying the 'Extracting Mixology Table'.

[swest]

I have another question that is tangentially related to the Class/Archetype discussion, and which has come up as I continue to organize my thoughts around it.

Q: What kind of thing is "Poison Resistance (Ex)"?

As I was going through the Alchemist (Mixologist), and sorting through its component pieces, it seemed that one thing to do to add a little value to the module I'm building, would be to add relevant entries to the local Feats and Special Abilities (I really like for a module to be as self-contained as possible.)

So, for instance, Mutagen (Su), Bomb (Su), and Alchemist Discovery (Su) went on the Special Abilities list.

While Brew Potion (Ex), and Throw Anything (Ex), went on the Feats list.

Then I came to Poison Resistance (Ex). I find no categorization for it. It just appears under the Alchemist Class Features. It seems to be referenced in a few other places (in the extended Pathfinder universe), but not in the way that these others are organized.

Can someone illuminate this for me? I've kind of looked at these sorts of things as building blocks, selected from a well-defined pool of a few types of blocks, that get put together to make PCs, NPCs, and Monsters. So I always expect these things to show up on 'a list'.

?

Thanks,

- s.west

[bmos]

I have another question that is tangentially related to the Class/Archetype discussion, and which has come up as I continue to organize my thoughts around it.

Q: What kind of thing is "Poison Resistance (Ex)"?

As I was going through the Alchemist (Mixologist), and sorting through its component pieces, it seemed that one thing to do to add a little value to the module I'm building, would be to add relevant entries to the local Feats and Special Abilities (I really like for a module to be as self-contained as possible.)

So, for instance, Mutagen (Su), Bomb (Su), and Alchemist Discovery (Su) went on the Special Abilities list.

While Brew Potion (Ex), and Throw Anything (Ex), went on the Feats list.

Then I came to Poison Resistance (Ex). I find no categorization for it. It just appears under the Alchemist Class Features. It seems to be referenced in a few other places (in the extended Pathfinder universe), but not in the way that these others are organized.

Can someone illuminate this for me? I've kind of looked at these sorts of things as building blocks, selected from a well-defined pool of a few types of blocks, that get put together to make PCs, NPCs, and Monsters. So I always expect these things to show up on 'a list'.

?

Thanks,

- s.west

That should end up in the class features list in FG.
Also I'd like to mention that you can automate that save bonus using my Malady Tracker extension with Kelrugem's full extension (if the GM is using it for the poisons)

[swest]

Yes, but what is it? All the other items under the Class Features are either Feats or Special Abilities. What is Poison Resistance?

I'll get with our group's Alchemist (a Goblin named Snuk), and go over the Malady Tracker.

Thanks.

- s.west

[Blahness98]

Poison Resistance is an extraordinary ability granted to Alchemists. It can be considered a special ability.

Extraordinary abilities are non-magical. They are, however, not something that just anyone can do or even learn to do without extensive training. Effects or areas that suppress or negate magic have no effect on extraordinary abilities.

So in this case, it is something the alchemist has learned in their studies and tinkering with their formulas. More than likely, some of the chemicals and ingredients to those formulas could dangerous or bad for one's health. Since the alchemist is around them so much, they develop a growing immunity to the poisonous nature of the stuff (example from a movie). Everything I just typed could be an in character reason why the character could be given the bonus to poison saves. So what the ability is would essentially be up to the player to determine. In game terms, it is just an improving +X bonus the class is granted as they can play with poison.