Druid Wild Shapes (for 5E)

[Azimuth]

Just a quick note to thank you, Minty, for creating this extension; I have recently started using FG and had hit the complications of trying to manage Druid Wild Shape in the last session, so finding this extension and discovering how much it does has really lifted my spirits

Regarding the issue of the perception bonus that ocelost mentions above, I'd also been a bit confused by the unexpected increase in perception and passive perception bonus, but on reading your posts and this particular phrase from the Player's Handbook:

You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature.

I've realised that a PC who doesn't have proficiency in perception will gain an extra proficiency +2 bonus from that of eg. the brown bear shape which has an explicit +3 perception bonus (ie. the brown bear has proficiency in perception), meaning the numbers add up.

I admit I haven't let my players loose with the extension yet; I'll report back with any surprises, but for now - thank you so much for creating it!

[Minty23185Fresh]

Thank you Azimuth for giving my extension a try. And thank you for adding to the conversation.

I do recall spending an inordinate amount of time trying to get the skills right. I do plan to re-examine my calculations and work through ocelost’s as I attempt to reconcile this.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Problem confirmed, using DWSI v0.0.11.

I created a level 2 moon druid with 18 wisdom, not proficient in perception, so the perception bonus was +4. I then dropped in a dire wolf, which is proficient in perception with a bonus of +3. The resulting wild shape should have perception +4, but DWSI gives it +6.

To investigate ocelost's claim I too did this things, (level 2 moon druid with WIS 18, not proficient in perception, then wild shaped to dire wolf). Confirmed DWSI calculates the wild shaped druid's perception skill bonus to be +6.

I disagree with ocelost's claim that the +6 value is wrong. Here is why.

From the Player's Handbook:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If both you and the creature have the same proficiency, use only the higher bonus."

Factors applicable to wild shape perception bonus
From the Druid:

• Retain Wisdom score: WIS = 18, Wisdom bonus = +4
• Retain skill (Perception) proficiency = +0

From the Dire Wolf

• Gain those of the creature...
• The Dire Wolf has a Perception Proficiency of +2, here's why.
• The Dire Wolf has a WIS ability score of 12, with a Wisdom bonus of +1
• The Dire Wolf has an explicitly stated Perception of +3
• Skill proficiency bonuses are composed of the appropriate ability's bonus plus any proficiency in that skill.
• Therefore the Dire Wolf's stated Perception of +3 is composed of the Wisdom bonus +1 and a proficiency of +2

Wild Shaped Druid

• Perception skill bonus = ability score + skill proficiency
• Druid WIS ability bonus = +4 (retained)
• Druid Perception skill proficiency = +0 (ignored, Dire Wolf's is higher)
• Dire Wolf WIS ability score = +1 (ignored, Druid's is retained)
• Dire Wolf Perception skill proficiency =+2 (used, gain those of the creature, which is higher)
• Wild Shaped Druid's Perception bonus = +6 (Druid's retained ability bonus + Dire Wolf's skill proficiency)

Conclusion: DWSI calculates the correct value and does not need fixing.

Which, by the way, is just as Azimuth stated in his post (#161) in this thread.
Thank you Azimuth for confirming my calculations (using the Brown Bear as opposed to the Dire Wolf).

[ocelost]

From the Player's Handbook:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If both you and the creature have the same proficiency, use only the higher bonus."

Where did you find that text? I'm looking at three different copies of the Player's Handbook rules: 1st printing, 12th printing, and the dndbeyond.com-licensed text. All of them contain the paragraph you quoted above, except for that third sentence, which does not appear in any of them. Instead, the third sentence reads as follows:

"If the creature has the same proficiency as you and the bonus in its stat block is higher than yours, use the creature's bonus instead of yours."

If you have been relying upon the sentence you quoted instead the latter, I guess that could explain why your understanding of the rules differs from mine. (Side note: the book also contains a fourth sentence in that paragraph, regarding legendary and lair actions.) Are you working with a pre-release copy of the rules? Perhaps a draft copy that doesn't include later corrections?

• Druid Perception skill proficiency = +0 (ignored, Dire Wolf's is higher)
• Dire Wolf Perception skill proficiency =+2 (used, gain those of the creature, which is higher)

You're ignoring the rules here. In the test case, the dire wolf does not have the same proficiency as the druid, because the druid does not have the proficiency at all. Furthermore, the bonus in the dire wolf's stat block is not higher, because +3 is not higher than +4. Yet, you are choosing to use the creature's higher values anyway.

I really don't want to be a pest. It's your code, after all, and it's certainly your prerogative to make it do whatever you like, regardless of what the rules say. However, I think your choice in this case is misleading people, and I feel some responsibility to warn other players and DMs who come across this extension that it might not be doing what they think.

Also, if your choice is founded on a printing discrepancy, I think it would be interesting to identify it.

[Minty23185Fresh]

Player's Handbook as per Fantasy Grounds.
(I can’t afford that many copies of a WotC publication. I just have that one.)

[LordEntrails]

Note that the FG version of the PHB (and everything else) should be updated with the latest errata. But can be verified by searching for the errata online.

[ocelost]

Player's Handbook as per Fantasy Grounds.
(I can’t afford that many copies of a WotC publication. I just have that one.)

Ah, I see. It's worth noting that I have found problematic text in Fantasy Grounds as recently as last week, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they messed this one up, too. I'll take a look at what it has to say about Wild Shape, and maybe submit a bug report to them.

You might want to look at the dndbeyond text that I linked earlier, and maybe borrow a print copy of the Player's Handbook or ask someone to read the paragraph in question from their copy.

But can be verified by searching for the errata online.

I just checked, and there is nothing in the errata about this. That makes sense, though, since (as far as I can tell) the text I quoted has been exactly the same since the first printing of the book.

[LordEntrails]

The most recent PHB Errata I can find is November 2018; https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sag...-november-2018 But is only has a minor change about Druid spells.

[New] Preparing and Casting Spells (p. 66). In the first sentence, “your spells” is now “your druid spells.”

The previous Errata from 2016 has nothing on Druids at all; https://media.wizards.com/2016/downl...-Errata-V1.pdf

Mr Z might know the source of the FG PHB.

I'm guessing any changes between the printings are undocumented... Not sure what that means though :O

[Zacchaeus]

The original pdf used to create the PHB is lost in time. The one that I have which was obtained from WotC last year has the wording that ocelost mentions in post #164.

I've taken a note to update the Druid with that text.

[Minty23185Fresh]

From the Player's Handbook:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature. If both you and the creature have the same proficiency, use only the higher bonus."

My interpretation of this is:
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment and your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."

• Pertains to Ability Scores and Ability bonuses.
• For the Druid WIS=18, bonus=+4
• For the Dire Wolf WIS=12, bonus=+1

"You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature."

• Pertains only to proficiencies.
• For the Druid Perception proficiency=none, or numerically +0
• For the Dire Wolf Perception proficiency=yes, or numerically +2

" If both you and the creature have the same proficiency, use only the higher bonus."

• Again pertains only to proficiencies.
• For the Druid Perception proficiency=none, or numerically +0
• For the Dire Wolf Perception proficiency=yes, or numerically +2

The bonus applied to the die for a skill roll = the ability modifier or bonus + the proficiency expressed numerically.

Here is the crux of how my calculation of the bonus is derived:

• Per the Monster Manual stat block, the stated perception for a Dire Wolf = +3.
• This is the total bonus applied to the monsters die roll.
• Per the stat block, the WIS ability bonus = +1.
• Therefore the numerical value for the proficiency of the Dire Wolf Perception skill = +2.
• Total Proficiency bonus for the Wild Shape = +4 (Druid's ability bonus) +2 (Dire Wolf skill proficiency bonus) = +6

• Dire Wolf WIS ability score = +1 (ignored, Druid's is retained)
• Dire Wolf Perception skill proficiency =+2 (used, gain those of the creature, which is higher)

You're ignoring the rules here. In the test case, the dire wolf does not have the same proficiency as the druid, because the druid does not have the proficiency at all. Furthermore, the bonus in the dire wolf's stat block is not higher, because +3 is not higher than +4. Yet, you are choosing to use the creature's higher values anyway.

I am not ignoring the rules. I am applying them as stated.
You have chosen to compare total skill bonuses not proficiency bonuses. To compare proficiency bonuses you must use mathematically derived numeric values.

I really don't want to be a pest. It's your code, after all, and it's certainly your prerogative to make it do whatever you like, regardless of what the rules say. However, I think your choice in this case is misleading people, and I feel some responsibility to warn other players and DMs who come across this extension that it might not be doing what they think.

I have tried to be nice, and address your concerns. However at this point you are becoming a pest, and for some reason you have decided to disparage my work on some sort of personal crusade against me. It is obvious that you don't want to use the extension, so don't. As a matter of fact, please don't. I don't need, nor want you as a user. My conversation with you is now over.