Savage Worlds Adventure Edition Kickstarter

[Topdecker]

I am all in for walling off the old product and creating a new product line. And I own a great deal of it. Much of the older modules are pretty far behind anyhow.

FWIW, I jumped into the Kickstarter with a hardbound copy of the new rules. I am not GMing any SW games at the moment, but it is still my preferred system for settings from 1500AD onward. Hopefully they do a better job of spelling out how the benny system is supposed to work (yeah, you think you know...)

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[Sgain]

@Topdecker; there are some new rules for bennies that my players really, really like. I think you'll like them.

[Topdecker]

The current system favors a storytelling style that foreshadows or outright explains everything in immediate motion. For instance...

"Your team walks out into the plaza looking for the spy. Give me a notice roll. <Roll fails.> Would you like to use a benny?"

vs

"The sniper sets up with a good overwatch of the plaza, his scope dancing from potential target to potential target. He sees the traitor enter the plaza and take a seat at the cafe and begins to calm his breathing. Out of the corner of his eye he notices a team of 4 operatives enter from the walk platz and realizes that he needs to shoot and shoot soon.

Your team walks out into the plaza looking for the spy. Give me a notice roll. <Roll fails.> Would you like to use a benny?"

Players need to know how important it is to be successful before they spend a limited resource, which makes a foreshadowed storytelling style very friendly for bennies. Otherwise, you need to add something like 'It is critical to the mission that you succeed with a raise." (And adjust the level of importance to match the importance of success.)

And we haven't even touched upon adventure cards...

EDIT: The problem is that none of this is really spelled out in the rules very clearly. And then you get someone like me that doesn't appreciate the rules dictating my storytelling style who will argue with the rules experts over their interpretation of their rules. Obviously, I've conceded to the notion of giving players enough information so they can spend their bennies intelligently, but overall I find the entire system to break the fourth wall too frequently and it is a constant aggravation and source of annoyance for me both as a player and a GM.

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[Skellan]

It is up to the player whether they want to spend a benny based on the information that they have.

[Topdecker]

The GM is supposed to qualify it well enough so players can make an informed choice. It isn't a guessing-game in which the GM attempts to draw bennies out of a player's hand.

They are supposed to be to the benefit of the player and obscuring the importance of success prevents the player from using them effectively. If a GM were doing this, I as a player should be able to ask directly how important is success on a scale of 1-10 and expect to get an accurate response.

This is why I made the earlier comment that bennies don't work how most people think they do. And that the rules did such a poor job of explaining such a critical system is why I was hoping they could find a way to be clearer in the next edition. (BTW, I got beat-up pretty badly for arguing that foreshadowing and otherwise explaining the value of re-rolling damaged the storytelling aspects. I suspect that some of the more rabid rules guys in the PEG forums would say that the 1-10 importance scale was not sufficient - but I am not willing to give it much more than that in many cases.)

Go ask on the PEG forums if you want to hear it from the source.

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[Skellan]

There are quite a 'few rabid rules guys' who don't work for pinnacle that like to tell people how to play. This is an old chestnut, I won't derail the thread any more with it. I am pretty sure no one will come and take my dice away

[Topdecker]

Yeah, and "rabid" is a restrained description IMO.

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[esmdev]

I think that the rules vs. creative flow war has been waged since the dawn of gaming. It really makes sense considering deep down the original tabletop RPG was built on a wargaming kernel. Wargamers can be quite rabid about rules and distance.

[Sgain]

In my games I have a couple of simple rules for bennie use; no bennies for fear or notice rolls. Cuts down on the wasting time having them play 20 questions with me.

[mac40k]

A lot of it has to do with the benny economy of the game. Where "bennies flow like water" players are more willing to spend a benny on a failed Notice roll, whereas in games where the GM is more stingy, they tend to horde them for soak rolls or important "offensive" combat usage. Another factor is the point in the session where the opportunity arises. With bennies refreshing at the beginning of each session, players are much more willing to "burn" a benny on a failed notice roll late in the session due to "use it or lose it" mentality, whereas they may be more hesitant to spend that benny on a reroll in the exact same situation if it occurs very early in the session. It's may be metagaming, but it's also just common/natural human behavior.

With respect to Notice rolls in particular, I don't tell players ahead of time what modifiers are in effect and do the math in my head. So the situation where the players must succeed with a raise to progress is just a -4 modifier they are unaware of. OTOH, I have adopted the spirit of Gumshoe with respect to giving out clues/info for my games. If the PCs need it, they get it, with or even without a roll. If they succeed with a raise, they just get better or additional info that may add value. Under no circumstances would I as a GM make it impossible to progress in the story without a player realizing that they should probably be spending a benny on a failed Notice roll. Going back to your sniper example, I would decide ahead of time how important to the story is it that the PCs have the opportunity to foil the assassination attempt. If it is critical that they be able to do so, they are going to have a glint or reflection of some sort catch their eye without calling for a Notice roll. If the shot has to happen, then it does, also without a Notice roll as just assigning a really high penalty to stack the odds against them still allows for the possibility that they can get lucky or be willing to spend a benny (especially if they have Elan) that then gives them an opportunity to derail the story in a manner I may not be prepared for. If I'm asking for a Notice roll, I've already accounted for all possible outcomes (failure/success/raise), or the outcome has no significant impact on overall story progression and I'm just planning to improvise and riff off of the players' actions.