3.5 rules questions

[kalmarjan]

I agree.

When you are speaking of being a rules player and not a role player....Think on this:

When I think about the dastardly necromancer powering up his ghoul touch spell to lay waste with a bare touch... or a <shudder> contagian spell... these are the things for great roleplaying.

Players never choose these options because of the fear that they will not get to use them because of attacks of opportunity. I say, nonsense! So what, it is a little harder to play the character, but it sure makes for more fun. The character wouldn't be in the front line? What do you want to play? A fighter or a spellcaster?

Sure, 3.0 and 3.5 opened up the rules for players of arcane character to use swords and armors, but I do still like the characters that hang back and rain death on the foes in front. The most important point in combat should be "get the magic user!", because they are the most damaging. (Like the harm spell above... can you see a fighter doing the same damage as a 20th level cleric with a harm spell? 200 HP? Not without some major forms of magical equipment. Imagine if the spell was criticaled? 400 damage, save for half? Oh... your still alive? With your 1 HP? Tsk.. Tsk...)

Sandeman

[kalmarjan]

Lights touch paper ...
This sort of thing is what drove me away from trying to role play with D&D many years ago. Though I'm sure you guys are correct and the rules allow a mage to complete a touch spell by using another object/familiar/person etc to complete it ... does it not bother you that this is rule playing rather than role playing ?

I see this as a good opportunity to role play. As opposed to taking a feat to make it so you can not have to really touch your opponent to make an attack, you use another creature. I look at it like this.

In fantasy, there is always some reference to the evil bad guy using creatures as their eys and ears. Think about rats in RJ's world, or Ravens in the game of thrones. It seems like a cool opportunity to have your spellcaster send out the critter to deliver the attack, and gives them something to be cool for, as opposed to just getting a benefit (like extra HP) for having a familiar.

Seem logical?

sandeman

[Cypher]

(Like the harm spell above... can you see a fighter doing the same damage as a 20th level cleric with a harm spell? 200 HP? Not without some major forms of magical equipment. Imagine if the spell was criticaled? 400 damage, save for half? Oh... your still alive? With your 1 HP? Tsk.. Tsk...)

Sandeman

Harm does a maximum of 150 points of damage, save for half. Not quite as powerful as you may think

[kalmarjan]

Oops, you are right...

OTOH, Harm can be subject to a critical effect, so the amount ramps up to 300 HP, save for half.

Still not very bad in my books.

Sandeman

[Cypher]

Oops, you are right...

OTOH, Harm can be subject to a critical effect, so the amount ramps up to 300 HP, save for half.

Still not very bad in my books.

Sandeman

Aye, it's still a big hit.

Just taking a look at the offensive touch spells for clerics, and their short list (assuming Core only) is (level in brackets):

Bestow Curse (3), Contagion (3), Cure Spells (0, 1, 2, 3), Death Knell (2), Harm (6), Inflict Spells (0, 1, 2, 3), Poison (4).

Not a whole lot to choose from.

The ones I missed earlier from the Wizard list were any that save for half damage rather than full negate, so you can add the following to that list:

Blight (5)

[kalmarjan]

Right. Add in the BOVD spells, and you have some wicked touch ones there. (Touch of Madness anyone?? LOL)

Sandeman

[Callum]

But you are assuming the person he is threatened by does nothing between those two rounds.

If he takes a 5 foot step back and casts to avoid an aoo, the person he is avoiding can take a 5 foot step up and get a Full Attack off. For a mid-high level fighter this can be multi-swings.

The (potential) target could also ready an action to attack the spellcaster when they come in range.

The 5-foot step ploy won't work so well with monsters that have reach.

Finally, don't forget that if the PCs can do it, then NPCs can, too!

[kalmarjan]

Again, this is why it is important to have your spellcasting characters stay in the background while casting.

Also, just because the target has readied an action when the spellcaster comes in range, this will not really help them with the whole AOO, because the spell is already cast. The player would be holding a charge to make a touch attack. (And the player is considered "armed" with the spell.) So the fighter may get a standard action (read: one swing), and if he does not down the spell caster, there is no point.

OTOH, if you are playing a spellcasting character, and releying on the 5 foot step rule to keep them safe, you are not really playing it safe, are you? LOL

Like the previous poster said, a fighter with multiple swings can do some real damage to a spellcasting character. (Forget the fighter, how about an invisable rogue?)

Some may say this is not really fair. I think it is. Some spells have the potential to do a massive amount of damage, or incapacitate or even kill the targets. Having a way to overcome this is essential to a fun game.

If you are looking at making it so the AOO does not occur with touch attacks, then as a player, I would be worried about death attacks that are touch based. (I cannot quote one right now, as it is in another accessory for the game.)

Sandeman