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  1. #31
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by esmdev View Post
    I think that your idea of what I am looking for and what I am actually looking for are vastly out of sync.
    I completely agree. It's very easy to miscomprehend a very short statement that can have a broad meaning. That's why I was trying to get more details!

    Quote Originally Posted by esmdev View Post
    Also I'm not trying to win players back.
    Sorry, I misunderstood.

    I'm glad that you've now engaged constructively in what you're looking for in future versions of the RMC ruleset. Thanks! I'm sure the dev involved with this ruleset will keep them in mind when making decisions on the direction to go.
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  2. #32
    I agree with Dakadin's idea of slowly incorporating portions of CoreRPG features directly into RMC, as a way of getting closer to a full port.

    If you can provide specific areas where you or your players really see the difference (such as sidebar button placement), then I think that will help Dakadin be able to prioritize.

    Regards,
    JPG

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by esmdev View Post
    Yes, that is one of their major complaints is that things aren't where they expect. It might seem arbitrary to FG experts, but for people who just want to connect and play, it can be disconcerting. Not all of them are the most computer savvy people in the world, we use FG these days so we can connect and game when separated by thousands of miles rather than everyone having to take plane flights to get together for a game. It is much more convenient to gather on FG but in other ways limits what we can play.
    Thanks. That definitely helps. I plan on getting that all lined up in the conversion but it is actually going to be a lot of work doing that because of how much is tied to the chat is tied into the ruleset. The funny thing is I could easily rearrange the existing buttons in the current ruleset. The biggest issue would be the needed graphics but I can do that if people think it will help and it should only take a few hours.

    Rolemaster Classic for FG Wish List - http://rm4fg.idea.informer.com/

  4. #34
    JohnD's Avatar
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    When other rulesets (SW, 3.5e, Pathfinder, 5e, C&C, WOIN, etc...) get a new feature, invariably we hear it is a CoreRPG item and is available because X ruleset is layered on CoreRPG. We also have heard, over the years, in response to "when will Rolemaster get X?", that Rolemaster is not a CoreRPG ruleset and that has, essentially been the end of "discussion".

    So, this is likely from where the desire to see a Rolemaster ruleset that is layered on CoreRPG comes from (whatever the proper terminology is); quite simply the desire to have the same functionality that other rulesets benefit from as well as consistency of use across the board (i.e. where things are located and how they are accessed).

    But, just here in this thread is the statement that a Rolemaster ruleset layered on CoreRPG won't really make much of a difference (or, people may be over estimating it's benefits).

    So, personally, I scratch my head with a bit of confusion. As a non-programmer I have difficulty reconciling the two sides of this apparent coin, but I fully realize that I am not a SME in this topic.

    On one hand, shiny new QoL advancements from the past 6ish years of FG development aren't in Rolemaster because it's not a CoreRPG ruleset (and they are in other rulesets at least in part because those rulesets *are* CoreRPG rulesets).

    On the other hand, making Rolemaster a CoreRPG ruleset apparently won't make much of a difference.

    I don't really understand that, but I need to put it out there as a preamble to my longer answer.

    Things that would be nice which I personally rightly or wrongly attribute to the general concept of a "CoreRPG layered ruleset" include but are not limited to (i.e. I'm probably forgetting something):

    - Party Sheet. Exactly what would be on the Main tab in my mind would need some further thought, but the essential concept would be the same as in other rulesets. An Order tab would be useful. An Inventory tab which would ideally function like it's counterparts in other rulesets. An XP tab which again, would function like it's counterparts in other rulesets (assign XP splits from encounters the GM drags in, create Quest entries, etc...).
    - Parcel functionality. This needs to be dragable into the Party Sheet Inventory tab and coins automatically split, and players able to drag items into their own inventory. Identified and unidentified state for items with unidentified descriptions would be nice too. Just like other rulesets.
    - Map pin functionality. Other rulesets I can create a map pin with information and share it with players - it then turns green so it is quite easy to see what's shared and what isn't. In Rolemaster pins stay red so the GM is operating blind.
    - Rollable tables. Not "Arms Law" tables but regular rollable tables that could be used to generate exactly the things they're used for in other rulesets; random encounters, (complete with a link to said encounter if the GM has made one), random treasure parcels (complete with options of how to output the results into chat or directly into a newly created parcel) and other tables where any random selection might be needed (i.e. potion descriptions). Rollable tables also includes all of the basic text tables that are in Rolemaster such as background options, starting bonus equipment, etc.... Random tables that will give you an item already put together or generate say 6d20 GP and 4d50 CP or whatever.
    - Switch from the little tabs at the bottom of everything (NPCs, Encounters, Maps, etc...) to the drop down method of organizing data with the search option. I loved the tabs myself when they were the way of doing things, but boy is the current method of approach from other rulesets a lot better comparing 2019 FG to 2013 FG.
    - Background desktop decals. The ability to have multiple options and cycle through them like in other rulesets would be nice.
    - Actual Random Encounter functionality that exists in other rulesets (i.e. 2d4 Orcs or 2*$PC+1 or whatever the proper nomenclature is).
    - Sidebar button functionality (i.e. where you find "Y" in Rolemaster is roughly where you find it in the other rulesets). These are not things that had come to my mind before this, but now that they've been mentioned I think it is a valid point.

    As for what the ruleset currently is, I think it handles Rolemaster as well as might reasonably be expected. The Resolver is a beautiful thing and generally puts all of the fiddly effects of critical hits and misses where they need to be, and applies them automatically. The CT does a great job of automatically handling everything you need as a GM, or allowing you to make a manual entry and then update on the fly going forward.

    In fact, as I mention whenever it seems appropriate; how FG handled Rolemaster 7+ years ago is what sold me on the software in the first place. It's not been a decision I've regretted at any time.

    Now it has been quite a while since I've had anything to do with Rolemaster. The lack of the above QoL features is a big part of that. Once you have the functionality ostensibly more or less everywhere else you look in FG, it's absence in this ruleset stands out more. Especially when from, in my opinion at least, CoreRPG is held up as a standard yet here's Rolemaster not going along with the standard.

    Personally I don't think the general hope behind these questions and desires for QoL features is for FG to do Rolemaster "better" as much as it is for the Rolemaster ruleset to do FG better (i.e. on a level made "standard" by advancements across the other rulesets over the past number of years). In my mind this is a huge distinction to make.

    Beyond this, I do want to address mentions of the crashing I was/am experiencing, but Drone Duty calls so that will have to be a post for later on.
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  5. #35
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnD View Post
    - Party Sheet. Exactly what would be on the Main tab in my mind would need some further thought, but the essential concept would be the same as in other rulesets. An Order tab would be useful. An Inventory tab which would ideally function like it's counterparts in other rulesets. An XP tab which again, would function like it's counterparts in other rulesets (assign XP splits from encounters the GM drags in, create Quest entries, etc...).
    - Parcel functionality. This needs to be dragable into the Party Sheet Inventory tab and coins automatically split, and players able to drag items into their own inventory. Identified and unidentified state for items with unidentified descriptions would be nice too. Just like other rulesets.
    - Map pin functionality. Other rulesets I can create a map pin with information and share it with players - it then turns green so it is quite easy to see what's shared and what isn't. In Rolemaster pins stay red so the GM is operating blind.
    - Rollable tables. Not "Arms Law" tables but regular rollable tables that could be used to generate exactly the things they're used for in other rulesets; random encounters, (complete with a link to said encounter if the GM has made one), random treasure parcels (complete with options of how to output the results into chat or directly into a newly created parcel) and other tables where any random selection might be needed (i.e. potion descriptions). Rollable tables also includes all of the basic text tables that are in Rolemaster such as background options, starting bonus equipment, etc.... Random tables that will give you an item already put together or generate say 6d20 GP and 4d50 CP or whatever.
    - Switch from the little tabs at the bottom of everything (NPCs, Encounters, Maps, etc...) to the drop down method of organizing data with the search option. I loved the tabs myself when they were the way of doing things, but boy is the current method of approach from other rulesets a lot better comparing 2019 FG to 2013 FG.
    - Background desktop decals. The ability to have multiple options and cycle through them like in other rulesets would be nice.
    - Actual Random Encounter functionality that exists in other rulesets (i.e. 2d4 Orcs or 2*$PC+1 or whatever the proper nomenclature is).
    - Sidebar button functionality (i.e. where you find "Y" in Rolemaster is roughly where you find it in the other rulesets). These are not things that had come to my mind before this, but now that they've been mentioned I think it is a valid point.
    Thanks for taking the time to detail the things you're looking for. Most of these have been briefly mentioned as things that will come with a migration to running on top of CoreRPG. I'm glad that most of the things you list would come with a full migration to running on top of CoreRPG.

    A couple of pieces of feedback:
    1) Shareable links on an image. This functionality is already there - it's baked into the FG client executable image control, not CoreRPG. It's just that the RMC ruleset doesn't have the green pin icon graphic (image_pin_public.png in the graphics\icons directory of CoreRPG).
    2) Sidebar button positions. To be frank, these are pretty much in the same locations - and themes very often change these anyway - so in many aspects there isn't actually a default "CoreRPG" button position at all. Additionally, in CoreRPG the user can select which of the larger buttons they see in the sidebar, the order in which they select them determines the order in which they appear. There's a default where these start, but it's now totally possible that after a few sessions in a campaign where a user adds/removes a couple of buttons, that there is not actually a standard order to the buttons in the sidebar. But at least the functionality is there to allow a user to put them in the order they want, so that's added flexibility.
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  6. #36
    Hi JohnD,

    Thanks for putting that list together. It gives me a better idea of what people are looking for.

    Thanks,
    Dakadin

    Rolemaster Classic for FG Wish List - http://rm4fg.idea.informer.com/

  7. #37
    I need to jump in. I appreciate all the work Dakadin has put in and I have communicated with him in the past, but yes the current ruleset does discourage players and there is a lot of functionality that isn't currently in the ruleset. Hard core RMC players might be fine with it in its current state, but it is harder to recruit new players. I know that porting this to CoreRPG is hard and takes time and I am aware of the dysfunction by the publishers trying for 7 years to update RMU. Being able to modify equipment/automate equipment (currently you cannot implement some special items using the ruleset such as spell adders or multipliers - you need to track manually), no auto range calculation for ranged wpns, there could be some functionality added to spells or even combat mechanics without the need for mods.

    None of this is a criticism of Dakadin's work, but it absolutely impacts new players. I am running a campaign with new players and it is challenging. I am sure there is other CoreRPG functionality that would be beneficial for a GM and ultimately help a GM run things more smoothly. Making things easier for a GM would make things smoother for the players. I think that is what we all hope for in a new version of RMC. I am no programmer, but I stand ready to help Dakadin in any way possible as he moves forward and if Guild Publications would get their act together and publish RMU we could potentially grow the player base. I was one of the original bidders on the IP assets of ICE and I regret not buying the assets. I even offered numerous times to help get RMU out the door and they keep doing the same thing and expecting different results.

  8. #38
    Hi watters,

    Just to clarify, the things you listed won't be part of the CoreRPG conversion. Those are things that I hope to implement after the CoreRPG conversion. I have ideas for how to implement those and a few other things that I haven't even mentioned to anyone but that all takes a backseat to getting the conversion done.

    Thanks,
    Dakadin

    Rolemaster Classic for FG Wish List - http://rm4fg.idea.informer.com/

  9. #39
    Oh I totally get that Dakadin. I am sure there is basic functionality that I will love with CoreRpg. You have done a great job considering this is a labor of love and not a full time job. I wish ICE were more helpful and that is very frustrating. I just know that the unfortunately reality for RMC is that it needs more work to help grow the player base and improve the game flow. The crunchiness of the game and detail of the game I love, but I do want a computer to assist managing all the detail otherwise the game gets bogged down too much or you have to toss out detail and new players are turned off.

  10. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Dakadin View Post
    To clear up confusion, the RMC attack, critical, fumble, MM, and RR tables will not be something you can create within the ruleset after being converted to CoreRPG. As Trenloe mentions the RMC tables and the CoreRPG tables are very different. They will exist side by side but you won't be able to mix and match them. The most complex portion of the RMC ruleset is the table resolver. It just isn't possible to integrate the two at least by me.
    Can you explain a little bit more what this means? For example, does it mean knowing how to resolve both column and row? Would we need 20 tables for every weapon so it could resolve attack rolls against the correct AT? I assume there's no issue outputting the string of text to chat? Or is it that effects can't be parsed from the output? Or is it not handling a d100 plus modifiers on a 1-150 spread of results? All of the above?

    I haven't tried RMC in fantasy grounds, nor CoreRPG, but my players and I stopped playing it because of the math making it so slow that story never happened. Here is what I know my players would want before they tried rolemaster again, and feedback from new players I tried to introduce to the game tabletop.

    The biggest situation was how many mistakes were being made levelling up and spending development points on skills. I had to basically do it one-on-one with every player every time. Second was in combat when they had to add up all the bonuses on them, the penalties on the enemy, plus parry/attack choices. When I corrected their mistakes they'd end up preferring a different action. This bogged down combat to an unplayable degree.

    With tables and a skill page that 1. Knows the costs per skill per character class and whether they are allowed to buy one, two or three boxes with each box cost correctly indicated 2. calculates the development points from the character's stats 3. applies them to skills in a checkbox manner like picking proficiencies in other systems 4 and finally calculates the total bonuses correctly with the diminishing returns. Just this one thing I know would be huge both as a coding effort and as an effect on new players' willingness to try the system.

    The ability to write my own effects and abilities into the character sheet to handle some automation in battle would be critical for me to be willing to GM in the system again. Like tracking that 2 hits/rnd and -20 to db for 3 rounds, or half speed for 1 round. etc. Having the binary "if target has <<area of body>> armor then" critical results automatable would be ideal but not necessary, defaulting to the "yes everyone is armored" value and making the DM take an action to add the heavier result would be good enough if it is possible for me to add the extra -2hp/rnd" from the "no body armor" result and have it deduct the total of 4 hp/round automatically.

    I know part of the problem is likely to be non-standard wording (attack spell fumble table has "is stunned for x rounds" "unable to function for 6 hours" and "slips into a coma for 1 week" which all mean "this character cannot take actions" but parsing every possible variation into one effect would be... nightmarish.

    Then how to even do an effect for "paralyzed from the waist down"? That one doesn't even have mechanics associated with it. So for all these things that rely on the GM storytelling and improvising, having an automated text reminder slapped on the target would be a really big time saver. I cannot talk and type something different than what I am typing at the same time. So play stops while I add a custom effect. A way to drag and drop text or have the parser say "this is an effect but it has no automatable mechanics so I'm just dropping it as text on the target" and do that automatically... this would be my biggest dream request.

    Being able to roll an attack and have it resolve automatically both the hit and the appropriate crit would be pretty much mandatory to shave enough time that combat becomes playable again. This includes having some fast way for reminding players and GMs of all the bonuses and penalties to be applied to the roll. Doesn't have to be as fancy as the way 5e effects can automate things, but if the bonus or penalty is in the formulas at the bottom of the table, a player or GM needs some way to set it as an effect or ability or button to click in the modifier box or something (yes I know those are all using FG 5e terms).

    If RMC as it exists already does this, great I can talk to my players and maybe get some to try it. If it doesn't then I already know none of them will give it a shot, and I can't play a story that moves that slow again even with new players. I need some automation to make the system faster. No matter how much I love shadow world, I just can't GM another campaign where every encounter takes 2 sessions to resolve.

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