Trying to gauge interest in new battlemap-making software

[Full Bleed]

Well. I just don't see myself ever using anything but photoshop to make my maps. Its just too good.

This really isn't positioned to compete with Photoshop when it comes to more complex map-making. This is clearly focused on making maps using tile-sets (of which there is a growing supply of). I've never found complex tile-sets and Photoshop to be a particularly good match... in fact, I'd rather use Maptool when working with tilesets. Mapforge does look like it fills a niche. I could see putting something together here more quickly and then exporting to Photoshop for finishes (if necessary).

[damned]

It turns out that there was substantial interest in new mapping software. The Kickstarter for MapForge funded on the first day, and the campaign now has well over 800 backers and is close to unlocking the second Stretch Goal. The first Stretch Goal unlocked five free content Add-Ons.

I'm thrilled with how well MapForge has been received, especially by the former DJ community. I hope MapForge will become an indispensable tool for Fantasy Grounds GMs.

Hey heruca I jumped on last night too

[heruca]

Thanks guys. And well said, Full Bleed. Except for one thing I'd like to clarify. About all the prototype does is make maps out of tiles, this is true. But there will be much more to MapForge than that. It's going to be a full-blown map-making program, which you can use to make maps from scratch, if that's your preference. Much like DJ used to do.

FG users might be in a bit of luck regarding MapForge. As I think I mentioned before, the app will over a free use level, meaning it can be used to make maps without having a MapForge license. One of the main limitations the free version will have is that exporting of the finished map will be limited to 50 pixels per grid square. But I was chatting with an FG user and was told that 50 dpi is what is typically used in FG. So I suspect that most FG users will be able to use MapForge unlicensed. Add-Ons can still be purchased for it, and proceeds from those go mostly to the artist/company responsible for creating the content.

Update on the state of the Kickstarter campaign:
A second Stretch Goal was unlocked, which will add support for randomly-generated dungeons via Donjon.
An Update will be posted tomorrow on the Kickstarter page to show how great this feature is going to be. Stretch Goal #3 is getting within reach now, and that will unlock several additional free content Add-Ons. I see little chance of NOT reaching that goal in the 20 days remaining in the campaign, so it's pretty much a given that there will be at least 8 free Add-Ons for the software, which is pretty awesome.

[heruca]

Sorry, double-posted.

[kalnaren]

I'd consider it, but only under a few conditions.

I have CC3/CC3+, all the Symbol Set addons, plus a couple of CAs. That's a lot of moola invested in CC3. To justify any cost another software would have to do something sufficiently different than CC3, or the same kind of things significantly better than CC3.

One thing I'd love to see in a map creator is a 3D tileset system, with lighting, like the old Aurora engine. I know there's some other software out there that does this, but it's significantly limited, and of course therein lies the problem when using 3D.

Another thing, if I can't add my own content to a map creator, it's an instant write-off. No map creation program has enough content to do everything (understandable), but if adding a few missing things here or there is not supported or a colossal PITA, it's not worth my time or effort (and IMO using external editors like GIMP after one has created and exported the map is not a solution for this).

Along with the above, I'm much more willing to look at map creation software if it has a good library of addons, either pay-for or community made. I have nothing against paying for more content if it's really usable, and the more varied and versatile the content is, the more I'm likely to pay for it.

Just my $0.02.

Currently with CC3 I'm trying to do modern interior maps, and I'm finding the lack of variety in CC3 for that purpose a little annoying.

EDIT:

So I tried the prototype. Not bad. I'm not sure it will offer anything that I can't do in CC3, but even based on the prototype it's one of the better drag & drop map creation tools I've seen, and IMO could certainly be an alternative for people who don't want to shell out the money for CC3 + addons or don't want to learn CAD.

I thought the interface was very well done. I especially liked that when I clicked on a button and it said "Not implemented, use the hotkeys", my random guessing at which keys they were was actually correct. It's intuitive to say the least. The art in the prototype was very nice, and I really like the slight perspective in it. That's something I wish I could do in CC3.

So my final thoughts based on 10 minutes of playing with the prototype are that it might interest me depending on the art assets available, and depending on the ability to customize things (I gather from the buttons and other stuff available you're planning on adding overlays and other stuff you can add like furniture and the like).

For people who don't own CC3 and aren't photoshop wizards I think they'll definitely want to keep an eye on it.

Oh, one final thing, I'd highly suggest making sure the ability to mix and match different asset sets is available. One thing I really like about CC3 is that I can be mapping using Jon Robert's style, and add symbols from the stock DD3 or Mike Schley's style or whatever.

[JohnD]

I'm going to take a look at this when I get back to a computer.

[heruca]

I'd consider it, but only under a few conditions.

I have CC3/CC3+, all the Symbol Set addons, plus a couple of CAs. That's a lot of moola invested in CC3. To justify any cost another software would have to do something sufficiently different than CC3, or the same kind of things significantly better than CC3.

MapForge (the app) costs less than many CC3 symbol libraries. It's not like you'll be spending hundreds of dollars, as you did with CC3. Well, unless you get REALLY hooked and decide to buy EVERY content Add-On offered. But I figure the typical user will spend $25-$27 on the software, and maybe $10-40 on content Add-Ons. Some people will use MapForge without a license, and take advantage of the 9 free Add-Ons that will be coming out for it, so they'll have spent $0.

One thing I'd love to see in a map creator is a 3D tileset system, with lighting, like the old Aurora engine. I know there's some other software out there that does this, but it's significantly limited, and of course therein lies the problem when using 3D.

Something like that is most certainly on the way. And I agree that it will limit the user in terms of adding custom content, unless they are technically savvy, so such a product will probably be going after a different type of user.

Another thing, if I can't add my own content to a map creator, it's an instant write-off. No map creation program has enough content to do everything (understandable), but if adding a few missing things here or there is not supported or a colossal PITA, it's not worth my time or effort (and IMO using external editors like GIMP after one has created and exported the map is not a solution for this).

No worries, as MapForge will let you use your own content. I highly suggest that you read Update #4.

Along[/url]Along with the above, I'm much more willing to look at map creation software if it has a good library of addons, either pay-for or community made. I have nothing against paying for more content if it's really usable, and the more varied and versatile the content is, the more I'm likely to pay for it.

More free and commercial Add-Ons for MapForge will be announced during the 18 days that remain in the campaign. Should be a very decent selection, with a notable increase in modern-day and sci-fi content.
I've seen complaints that there is TOO MUCH content. Indeed, there is more than any one user should need. I provide more than that because there will be many users, each with different needs. But seriously, someone on Reddit said they'd pass on MapForge because it was too expensive if you got ALL the DLC. My response was that it's like complaining that it's too expensive to get EVERY app available for your smartphone. Who does that?!

So I tried the prototype. Not bad. I'm not sure it will offer anything that I can't do in CC3

I think you may have missed the forest for the trees. Just because one of the only things that the prototype can do is make maps out of tiles, it doesn't mean that is the only thing that the finished MapForge application will be able to do. MapForge will be a full-fledge mapping program, like Dundjinni was.

I thought the interface was very well done. I especially liked that when I clicked on a button and it said "Not implemented, use the hotkeys", my random guessing at which keys they were was actually correct. It's intuitive to say the least.

Thanks. Sorry that I forgot to include the full list of Hotkeys in an accompanying ReadMe (you can search the KS Comments for the hotkeys). The next version of the prototype will have that, or will have the hotkeys listed in-app.

The art in the prototype was very nice, and I really like the slight perspective in it. That's something I wish I could do in CC3.

That perspective effect is common in content produced by Lord Zsezse Works and Black Scrolls Games. It's not an inherent MapForge feature/effect. Just wanted to clarify that.

one final thing, I'd highly suggest making sure the ability to mix and match different asset sets is available. One thing I really like about CC3 is that I can be mapping using Jon Robert's style, and add symbols from the stock DD3 or Mike Schley's style or whatever.

The program will let you use art from many different Add-Ons in a single map, but it will be up to the user to figure out how to blend any wildly disparate art styles.


Thanks so much for the feedback!

[JohnD]

What kind of tilesets will you have at release?

I used NWN for ~ 12 years, what would my learning curve be like?

[kalnaren]

MapForge (the app) costs less than many CC3 symbol libraries. It's not like you'll be spending hundreds of dollars, as you did with CC3. Well, unless you get REALLY hooked and decide to buy EVERY content Add-On offered. But I figure the typical user will spend $25-$27 on the software, and maybe $10-40 on content Add-Ons. Some people will use MapForge without a license, and take advantage of the 9 free Add-Ons that will be coming out for it, so they'll have spent $0.

For that price I'd definitely consider picking up a copy. I like having multiple tools at my disposal.

More free and commercial Add-Ons for MapForge will be announced during the 18 days that remain in the campaign. Should be a very decent selection, with a notable increase in modern-day and sci-fi content.
I've seen complaints that there is TOO MUCH content. Indeed, there is more than any one user should need. I provide more than that because there will be many users, each with different needs. But seriously, someone on Reddit said they'd pass on MapForge because it was too expensive if you got ALL the DLC. My response was that it's like complaining that it's too expensive to get EVERY app available for your smartphone. Who does that?!

Interestingly enough, I see this complaint A TON in the modern DLC era where it's common for AAA companies to only provide "complete" experiences when you purchase ALL of the DLC. Train Simulator is a perfect example of this. DTG never intended people to buy the over $1k of DLC.. just the addons that had the content they want. But people seem to be conditioned that they're "missing out" if they don't have it all. I've also seen this complaint leveled at Fantasy Grounds.

I agree.. it's dumb. When you release it might be worth making a very blatant point in your marketing material that buyers are indeed getting a complete program, and DLC is strictly for asset content that people want -NOT functionality. You shouldn't have to state it, but yea :/

I think you may have missed the forest for the trees. Just because one of the only things that the prototype can do is make maps out of tiles, it doesn't mean that is the only thing that the finished MapForge application will be able to do. MapForge will be a full-fledge mapping program, like Dundjinni was.

I never actually used Dundjinni, so I don't have much of a frame of reference there :P.

I'll definitely try the fully featured program to see what it's capabilities are when you release.

Thanks. Sorry that I forgot to include the full list of Hotkeys in an accompanying ReadMe (you can search the KS Comments for the hotkeys). The next version of the prototype will have that, or will have the hotkeys listed in-app.

I never even bothered to look at any documentation for it.. still managed to load it up and make a map in under 10 minutes. I think that says something about your UI design .

Took me a couple of years to get comfortable with CC3 lol.

That perspective effect is common in content produced by Lord Zsezse Works and Black Scrolls Games. It's not an inherent MapForge feature/effect. Just wanted to clarify that.

Gathered as much. But if they're available, I'm likely to use them

Thanks so much for the feedback!

You're welcome. I look forward to playing around with the program when it's released.

[heruca]

Stretch Goal #3 has been unlocked! MapForge will now have 9 free content Add-Ons! That should help offset the modest cost of the software.

An Update will be posted tonight on the KS page to preview the 4 Add-Ons there were just unlocked.