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  1. #11
    GunnarGreybeard's Avatar
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    I know squat about coding so can't really offer any help or guidance BUT I am curious to see what FG 3.2 brings to the table. With the advances made in there I am hoping a lot more neglected RPG's will see some activity.
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  2. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhern View Post
    Disclaimer:
    I do not speak for Frog God Games and do not make any decisions related to what content they have available in Fantasy Grounds. My interest in creating the S&W ruleset is to help others experience something that I personally love. The community-use ruleset that I work on will be free and there is no intent of charging for it.

    -------------------------

    Howdy - I'm the one that Myrdin references with regards to Swords & Wizardry. I've gotten permission from Bill Webb & Matt Finch (Frog God Games/Mythmere Games) to work on a full ruleset for Fantasy Grounds. I would definitely be willing to work with others too but I'll be doing this in my spare time (work, grad school, family) and can't necessarily commit to a certain timeline. Also, this is intended to be a free, community-use ruleset. I've started looking through the existing rulesets to get an idea of what I need to do in order to create the ruleset with as much ease of use support as possible (drag and drop, etc). I do have to agree that too many cooks in the kitchen impedes progress. If there is desire for more OSR support it would probably be best to divide and conquer.

    I noticed out on the wiki that there is a rudimentary Labyrinth Lord module and also an OSRIC module. The date stamp on those pages are from 2014, though, and I'm not sure if they work with the current version of FG. It shouldn't be hard to refactor those to make them work, though.

    I write code for a living so am not worried about being able to get the work done - I just need the time to do read through the FG developer guide and to figure out how I want to break up the work. The biggest impediment is time.

    If there are any questions or comments, please feel free to ping me on here.

    Zhern/Patrick
    I want to say, you're totally awesome, man. I had no idea that this project was in the works. Ok. So, I think the best thing for me to do then is to concentrate on AD&D and let you do your thing on S&W.
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  3. #13
    Trenloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunnarGreybeard View Post
    I know squat about coding so can't really offer any help or guidance BUT I am curious to see what FG 3.2 brings to the table. With the advances made in there I am hoping a lot more neglected RPG's will see some activity.
    I'm not sure what v3.2.0 specific advances would prompt more neglected RPGs to see more activity. The main changes are bug fixes, data presentation and sidebar button options (that's a very simplified view of a complex update).

    The updates planned to MoreCore will have the biggest impact (IMHO). Damned is holding off release until after v3.2.0, but not specifically due to any major improvements in FG v3.2.0 (the main MoreCore updates could be done in FG v3.1.7).
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  4. #14
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    I mean 1e when I refer to AD&D however the reason many people mean 2e when they say AD&D is that the 2e bookss were all plastered with Advanced Dungeons & Dragons in bigger typeface than the actual volume title.

    Zhern that is great news. Do as trenloe and leozelig suggest and build a layered ruleset. It leaves CoreRPG untouched but it first loads CoreRPG and then it lays your additional designs and magic on top. Some rulesets are layered again - Pathfinder is one - it is CoreRPG+3.5e+PFRPG

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  5. #15
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    vodokar if this project still excites you then perhaps you might continue with your current plan but take S&W out of your product choices.
    It would still be a great project to undertake with your son and a great learning experience.

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  6. #16
    "Originally Posted by Damned

    C&C's main differences are ASC AC and Siege Checks and BtH instead of THAC0.
    Build an extension (or a layered ruleset) on top of Castles&Crusades.
    1. new theme - mostly the charaater sheet
    2. implement ASC AC and have it automatically convert Monsters AC when you drag them into the CT (holy crap - you have most of the 1e monsters!)
    3. Work out a conversion process for BtH and THAC0 and how to show it on the Character Sheet and NPC sheet and do an automatic conversion of NPCs.
    4. Change Saving Throws to not use Siege Engine rules - and use 1e rules instead"


    I think you have a point regarding starting from C&C. It's layered on Core and is the closest of any of the other rulesets to AD&D.

    I especially like your approach regarding using Descending AC and Thac0. The old attempts for OSRIC, AD&D, LL and AD&D2 all tried to actually use Descending AC and Thac0, but didn't actually implement them to be able to report success vs a selected target. I believe OSRIC got closest, but still didn't really work well.

    But, what you are saying basically is:

    don't actually use Descending AC and Thac0, just make us think you are, while the computer is actually converting everything on the fly to Ascending and generating the Target Number so that it can use the reporting system that is already built in to C&C. That's brilliant. The DM can enter creature stats directly out of their modules with no conversion whatsoever and FG will do the heavy lifting.

    The biggest issue that I had with C&C was the Siege Engine rules. I miss the class and level based 5 saves from AD&D. It just is what makes sense to me and I think it's one of the iconic cornerstones of AD&D. One of the things I like most about AD&D is that each class is treated separately with different Thac0 progression, different saving throw progression, different experience point progression etc. etc. Each class feels unique, without feeling the need to unify it all simply for the sake of simplicity.
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  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by vodokar View Post
    "Originally Posted by Damned

    C&C's main differences are ASC AC and Siege Checks and BtH instead of THAC0.
    Build an extension (or a layered ruleset) on top of Castles&Crusades.
    1. new theme - mostly the charaater sheet
    2. implement ASC AC and have it automatically convert Monsters AC when you drag them into the CT (holy crap - you have most of the 1e monsters!)
    3. Work out a conversion process for BtH and THAC0 and how to show it on the Character Sheet and NPC sheet and do an automatic conversion of NPCs.
    4. Change Saving Throws to not use Siege Engine rules - and use 1e rules instead"


    I think you have a point regarding starting from C&C. It's layered on Core and is the closest of any of the other rulesets to AD&D.

    I especially like your approach regarding using Descending AC and Thac0. The old attempts for OSRIC, AD&D, LL and AD&D2 all tried to actually use Descending AC and Thac0, but didn't actually implement them to be able to report success vs a selected target. I believe OSRIC got closest, but still didn't really work well.

    But, what you are saying basically is:

    don't actually use Descending AC and Thac0, just make us think you are, while the computer is actually converting everything on the fly to Ascending and generating the Target Number so that it can use the reporting system that is already built in to C&C. That's brilliant. The DM can enter creature stats directly out of their modules with no conversion whatsoever and FG will do the heavy lifting.

    The biggest issue that I had with C&C was the Siege Engine rules. I miss the class and level based 5 saves from AD&D. It just is what makes sense to me and I think it's one of the iconic cornerstones of AD&D. One of the things I like most about AD&D is that each class is treated separately with different Thac0 progression, different saving throw progression, different experience point progression etc. etc. Each class feels unique, without feeling the need to unify it all simply for the sake of simplicity.
    Hi vodokar thats not quite what I meant about AC but if that works for you that would be fine.
    The main reason I suggest using C&C is because its at least 80% of what you want already and it has content included. The downside is that people would have to buy C&C to play a different game. I dont think thats a major issue as they will get all the content (and they can play C&C too).
    You should be able to for PCs record a DESC AC and a THAC0 (currently C&C records a BtH) on the Char Sheet and for NPCs you would still reference the C&C AC and do a conversion and display that and use that.

    Saving throws are not too hard to implement.

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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trenloe View Post
    I'm not sure what v3.2.0 specific advances would prompt more neglected RPGs to see more activity. The main changes are bug fixes, data presentation and sidebar button options (that's a very simplified view of a complex update).

    The updates planned to MoreCore will have the biggest impact (IMHO). Damned is holding off release until after v3.2.0, but not specifically due to any major improvements in FG v3.2.0 (the main MoreCore updates could be done in FG v3.1.7).
    Trenloe - Im hoping that it will get some good use

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  9. #19
    Regarding AD&D 2e, I suppose I am somewhat close-minded about it. It may be a great ruleset, I don't know.

    I can't seem to get over the fact about Gary Gygax being thrust out of his own company, having his game stolen from him (morally I mean) so that they could turn around as soon as he was gone and publish their own version, most likely principally for the reason that they could avoid paying him royalties, and then steam the ship directly into the big rock of insolvency, because they all thought they knew better than Gary did about his own company. mmm. Feel a little better now for having gotten that off my chest. Oh, forgot about the part where they continuously tried to sue him for using his own ideas.

    So, there is that. That's the main reason I refuse to even look at the game, regardless of what innovations they may have came up with for it. Call me silly, if you want.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by vodokar View Post
    Regarding AD&D 2e, I suppose I am somewhat close-minded about it. It may be a great ruleset, I don't know.

    I can't seem to get over the fact about Gary Gygax being thrust out of his own company, having his game stolen from him (morally I mean) so that they could turn around as soon as he was gone and publish their own version, most likely principally for the reason that they could avoid paying him royalties, and then steam the ship directly into the big rock of insolvency, because they all thought they knew better than Gary did about his own company. mmm. Feel a little better now for having gotten that off my chest. Oh, forgot about the part where they continuously tried to sue him for using his own ideas.

    So, there is that. That's the main reason I refuse to even look at the game, regardless of what innovations they may have came up with for it. Call me silly, if you want.
    Errr lets not forget that one GG did something similar to one DA with AD&D and BX.
    Just saying'....

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