Adjudicating Surprise

[Baron28]

A question came up in my game last night regarding surprise. The party felt that since they opened the door and saw a group of hobgoblins sitting at a table that they should have surprised them. I countered that opening the door alerted them to your presence (i.e. You see them. They see you.) and to let initiative determine who goes first. The rogue mentioned that he was hiding prior to the door opening and rolled a stealth check before everyone rolled initiative. Since his stealth roll was higher than the passive perception of the hobgoblins, I adjudicated that he was hidden and that he had surprise, thus bumping him up in the order higher than everyone.

Feedback is welcome on this ruling.

[merlinpaladin]

Unless they specifically stated they were queitly opening the door then there is no surprise. Also depends on what kind of door and how old.

[Baron28]

Unless they specifically stated they were queitly opening the door then there is no surprise. Also depends on what kind of door and how old.

They weren't being stealthy or quiet and the door was just an ordinary wooden door.

[someoneinatree]

Personally I probably would have let the rogue start the round as hidden from view so that his first attack gets advantage/sneak attack bonus, but left the initiative unchanged with no surprise round. Because as others have said, as the door opens everyone who isn't in stealth sights each other at the same time.

If on the other hand they had been really stealthy approaching the door, listened at it for a while and heard the hobgobs in there, and then rammed the door down, charging into the room... that might have taken the hobgoblins by surprise.

[JohnD]

Personally I probably would have let the rogue start the round as hidden from view so that his first attack gets advantage/sneak attack bonus, but left the initiative unchanged with no surprise round. Because as others have said, as the door opens everyone who isn't in stealth sights each other at the same time.

If on the other hand they had been really stealthy approaching the door, listened at it for a while and heard the hobgobs in there, and then rammed the door down, charging into the room... that might have taken the hobgoblins by surprise.

Yeah this is how I would handle it as well.

[Griogre]

Basically like others have said, but if you feel the the rogue really did gain surprise you don't change the order - the first round is a surprise round where he is the only one not surprised (though that would assume he was aware of the Hobgoblins which it doesn't sound like). Everyone else gains their reactions after their initiative has passed. In 5E only the first round of combat *can* be a surprise round by RAW, but it doesn't have to be - and initiative order in combat doesn't *ever* change in 5E.

[Baron28]

Thanks for the feedback guys. Very helpful.

[epithet]

I let my party use an athletics check (opposed by a dex save) to see if they can open a door fast enough to startle baddies on the other side. I adjust the save DC by +/- 5 based on advantage/disadvantage conditions that I pretty much make up on the spot. If they're startled, they can't take actions in the first round and can't take a reaction until after their turn (standard surprise.) Of course, that's all predicated on the party being able to get to the door undetected, first. The character making the athletics check does so as its action for the turn, but can still move on its initiative and react/bonus act as normal.

It seems to work pretty well. I especially enjoy it when the athletics check is strong, but fails to startle the intended victims because of stronger saves. It's also great when they breach a room this way straight into an ambush because someone heard them coming down the hall.