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I've been exploring the W.O.I.N. pen'n'paper rules and one of the reasons being that they're also available as a ruleset for Fantasy Grounds.
I'm wondering why the W.O.I.N. ruleset doesn't have it's own forum here at fantasygrounds.com like the other available rulesets do?
Chicken <> Egg?
WOIN discussion are in the CoreRPG (generic) sub-forum. https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...r-Game-Systems
At this point their is not enough of a group of WOIN users/discussions to justify a sub-forum just for the ruleset. If the community becomes large enough or active enough, then one would be made for it.
Oh OK, fair enough. TBH that could influence my decision to use the ruleset for a campaign, as I've read a few recent posts on other sites along the lines of things that aren't working not being fixed in a timely manner. It leaves me with the impression that the ruleset isn't embraced by many FG users and consequently it isn't getting the attention it deserves by the devs.
My understanding is that the dev for this is a community dev and not one of the SmiteWorks devs (which is typical for most niche rulesets). Check out that thread and decide for yourself if the ruleset has the level of support you desire.
If that's the case, it puzzles me why it's a payed-for ruleset?Quote:
Originally Posted by LordEntrails
Are there other rulesets developed by community devs for sale @ the fantasygrouds.com store?
Yes, almost every ruleset except for CoreRPG, D&D 3.5 & 5E are created by community devs. Some of the older niche ones are also now supported by SmiteWorks because the community dev has turned it over to SW. Often the reason they are paid for rulesets is because of licensing requirements with the IP holders. (edit: which means SW assumes support if the community dev does not meet obligations).Quote:
Originally Posted by kronovan
For instance, the D&D Classic ruleset (which is basically AD&D 1e/2e) was originally an unofficial ruleset created by the community member Celestian. He did such an impressive job on it, a license with WotC to convert and sell the AD&D PHB, MM, DMG, and modules was obtained. But I'm sure one of the agreements was that the ruleset itself must become official (would be interesting to sell a product that relies on something not supported by SmiteWorks).
For WOIN, I'm not sure how it came about, but it was developed under license by a community member. It is an official ruleset, and were the community member leave the community or not meet their obligations, then SmiteWorks could and would take over direct support for the ruleset.
All of the official rulesets do have a minimum level of function and support that is guaranteed by SmiteWorks. In my opinion, I think most of the community disappointment with any of these less prominent rulesets is that they see the automation and support provided for the showcase ruleset (5E) and some of the others (like D&D Class, PF2e, ...) and expect all commercial rulesets to have that same level. Which doesn't happen and really hasn't been promised.
Part of this may come from contracted community devs who have life challenges, or limited time, and that the rulesets and content do not sell enough to support fulltime support. For instance (and this is just me spitballing and making HUGE assumptions) say a corner ruleset like WOIN sells 1000 products for $50 each. Taking another WAG, perhaps the dev gets $5000 to build and support it (all from sales). And it probably took 500-2000 hours to make that ruleset and core products. That's means the dev is not doing this to make much money (otherwise they would just work overtime at their 'job') and that such funds would never support SmiteWorks to hire someone.
None of that changes with whatever platform/VTT you chose. The economics are all similar and it comes down to the developer doing the work out of their own love for the system, and having the means to allocate their own level of effort/commitment.
The current community developer for WOIN is MadBeardMan who has a lot of projects on his plate but makes an effort to round robin them. He is usually pretty responsive to individual requests. The most recent update can be found here: https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...l=1#post530770
I'm not familiar with the ruleset but the people there likely know more.
Read through the thread for the ruleset and make your decision. It seems like support and information sharing has been up and down throughout its history. I have been waiting on simple answers for too long now. But then again I bought the ruleset, returned it because I wasn't happy with the support, then shortly after bought it again because I really want to play it. So at this point I am just waiting and hoping that it will meet my expectations someday, but I am no longer upset by the lack of progress.Quote:
Originally Posted by kronovan
I have even posted in the EN World forums and received some quick feedback initially from someone else associated with Smiteworks, but that quickly disappeared as well. So it is what it is. You can certainly play the system in the ruleset, but some basic automation functionality I would expect from a paid ruleset it not yet there.
Thanks for the reply GrizzledNoob.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrizzledNoob
Those are very candid and helpful comments. At this point I've yet to run or play W.O.I.N., but I feel encouraged to continue with my read of the CRB, with the idea that I'll consider a purchase of the FG ruleset if they look suitable for my campaign and group.
If you choose to purchase the ruleset be aware that there is a 30-day money back guarantee (from the FG store, not sure how it works on Steam) just email support. Hopefully you like it and it'll work for you, but if you don't you have an option.
I gave my W.O.I.N. NEW PDF a thorough read, but have decided the rules present just a bit too much crunch for the group I'm currently looking to run a campaign for. And TBH I couldn't help but get the impression that it needs a rewrite - whether that be a subversion or a 2nd edition I can't say. I did really like the core play mechanics and could see myself running a campaign in its current state, but only for a group of players with some solid P'n'P experience under their belts.
What sort of era/setting are you looking at? Modern, Near Future, Space, Something else? There might be other rulesets that fit your needs.Quote:
Originally Posted by kronovan
Thanks for taking an interest emsdev. Your responded to my post in the Travellers forum which presented the details of my campaign, so those would be the same for the campaign I mentioned above.Quote:
Originally Posted by esmdev
I've considered all of these FG rulesets for my campaign:
- Basic RolePlaying
- D20 Modern
- Savage Worlds + SciFi Companion
- Starfinder
- Travellers
- W.O.I.N. New
I have 8 points of requirements for what the ruleset must meet. So far I've stricken every ruleset off that list except for Savage Worlds and Travellers.
So I've never played Traveler (though I do have the black/red 1e? box in my closet). And never any sci-fi Savage Worlds, so others can give you better opinions on those rulesets. But, my impression from the little I've done is that SW is going to be more cinematic or 'opera' in feel and play. Things are going to be fast, story is utmost, and rules are going to be light. While Traveler is going to be crunchy and hard sci-fi.
The setting I always have loved is Star Frontiers. But the rules are... old and full of holes. So last week I picked up the FrontierSpace rules and have read the player and some of the referee rules. I like them. They are pretty light and quick. Focusing on broad categories using the d00 lite system. So no classes or levels and general d100 ability checks with modifiers. Plus the additional of an interesting advantage/disadvantage mechanic I'm eager to see in practice.
BUT, all the published FS stuff I've seen is all higher tech than you are looking for. So you would have to adapt or create a lot of the tech items which can be time consuming :( Also, their is no FG ruleset for it. But it should be easy to do with CoreRPG or MoreCore. Which is my working plan for now as I plan to run a SF campaign using FS rules in the next year or two.
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions LordEntrails. One of the 8 points of my selection criteria was that the RPG has to be a ruleset with official Fantasy Grounds support; hence my narrowing it to those 6. I'm quite savvy with Savage Worlds, having been a writer for one of the SciFi settings available for it and having homebrewed my own settings with the rules.You're correct about the cinematic bent to it (wouldn't necessarily call it operatic though), which can be a plus if you have a few players new to P'n'Ps in your campaign - which I do. My campaign is Military SciFi with a gritty feel to it, where combat encounters pose a real threat and risk. I can employ features in the SciFi Companion, enable the gritty damage option and enable specializations for some of the SW skills. Due to SW being a P'n'P where a +2 bonus is a BIG deal though, I've found from experience that the latter has to be done with careful consideration.
Those elements to the setting I listed above, is why I've been considering other rulesets. Of the 6 I shortlisted, Starfinder and W.O.I.N. are the only ones I haven't played or GMd. I made a post on a popular RPG site soliciting feedback for which of those 6 rulesets would work best suit my campaign, but I only got positive feedback for Savage Worlds and Travellers. There's no doubt a reason for that.
My experience is that the Basic RolePlaying isn't in great shape, despite a recent update, and doesn't currently have a full-time developer, though ruleset bug fixes are fixed new features aren't being added (unless they find a full-time developer).Quote:
Originally Posted by kronovan
D20 Modern doesn't have a full time developer and the ruleset is a bit behind the times. It does include the D20 Future SRD information as well.
Savage Worlds (SWADE) and + SciFi work great and there is a full-time community developer. I used it briefly to run East Texas University but am not super familiar with it beyond that. I did think about running a Last Parsec campaign and bought the sci-fi companion to facilitate that, it worked well enough but never actually ran the game.
I don't have experience with Starfinder but it appears to have quite a bit of support with a full-time community developer. It has a fully operational starship combat system.
Traveller, I am very familiar with, has a full-time community developer with modules and supplements coming out fairly regularly of late. It's combat system is currently in open beta for anyone that owns the ruleset, and the starship construction system is currently in internal testing. MGT2 is being developed full-time, MGT1 is stalled because Mongoose want the focus on MGT2.
This was one of the points for my requirement criteria:Quote:
Originally Posted by esmdev
"4.) Must have an affordable and properly formatted core rule book available in PDF format. By properly formatted, I mean a true text-based layout with proper layers, so players can effectively view it on Android, iPad or Win-Surface tablets. And also important, allow the GM to copy and paste from it."
That immediately eliminated D20 Modern, because believe it or not, the PDF that Wizards of the Coasts offers for sale is only an image scan of the original CRB! As well, with no bookmarks and bare bones formatting at best, Chaosium's Basic RolePlaying gold book barely meets that requirement either. That they still sell that PDF for $22 makes it even worse IMO. I like to encourage my players to become proficient in the rules. A quality PDF that's affordable is important, as it encourage them to buy their own copy and learn the rules on their own time.
Point 2 was:
"2.) Must be known as effective rules for running Military SciFi and have existing support for that."
That did eliminate Basic Roleplaying, because despite having some good SciFi support decades ago, it's since dried up with bare minimal offerings now at most.
This was another point in my criteriaQuote:
I don't have experience with Starfinder but it appears to have quite a bit of support with a full-time community developer. It has a fully operational starship combat system.
"7.) Must have a damage system that presents real challenges to PCs. "
With Stamina Points that buffer Hit Points and a 3rd set of Resilience Points that can regen SPs, Starfinder didn't seem to present much of a challenge for a PC staying in the action during combat scenes.
A bigger knock against it though was this requirement point:
6.) Must be able to run without the need for classes."
From what I can read in the SF CRB, it's firmly tied to the Fantasy-SciFi genre. It does look like a decent set of rules to play a D&D in Space or current gen Spelljammer-like campaign, but I for one wouldn't want to take on the task of tweaking it to support the Military SciFi genre. As well, there doesn't seem to be anyway to hand crank it away from the classes it's tightly wound to.
Yep, which is a bit of a problem for me as I've now been lent the Orbital Campaign Setting and Traveller 2300AD book, but they're both based on the MGT 1e rules. Those are important for me, because my campaign is prestellar Tech Level 9 and those books provide more content for that era. It may still work with a bit of lifting and more importantly, me becoming familiar enough with the MGT 2e CRB and High Guard to know if it's adaptable. There's certainly no doubt that it's an excellent set of rules for running Military SciFi campaigns.Quote:
Traveller, I am very familiar with, has a full-time community developer with modules and supplements coming out fairly regularly of late. It's combat system is currently in open beta for anyone that owns the ruleset, and the starship construction system is currently in internal testing. MGT2 is being developed full-time, MGT1 is stalled because Mongoose want the focus on MGT2.
Since this was more of a Traveller answer, I answered in your other thread in the Traveller board, where the 2300AD players mostly lurk.
https://www.fantasygrounds.com/forum...l=1#post540413