From The *Somewhat Twisted* Mind Of Dulux-Oz

I need to find one of these paid games. Im tired of not having a game to play in. At least if the GM is paid he'll be there.

I argue that paying a GM is just the natural progression of any service. Rpgs are becgoming more popular but people like to play, they don't like the pressure of having to build the world, build the npc's, build the adventure and plan out the time. In rough estimate one hour for a players game time is about 4 to 5 hours of just prep for the GM. On top of that, the GM has to work a regular job to survive in general, pay bills, get food, etc. So they have to actively set aside time to plan this out, sometimes on a biweekly basis or more. Gms are in incredible high demand I could post on one of these forums and get 7 players in a few days at most. But if you're a player finding a GM is very difficult.
Further, a lot of gms are lazy (not the majority). Everyone has some sort of bad GM story where the GM railroads players cause they gate them "going off script", or refuse to adjust encounters to the party's skill level, either up or down, to keep it a fair challenge. Or just lose interest. Paid games would allow gms with the passion to focus all their attention on improving their craft to make it worth the time. And the market will keep quality in check, as more gms start to build businesses around gaming, the market will become competitive. I can understand why many people are against paid gms, but I do not agree that it is the same prostitution. If we wanted to stick to our principles, all services sold for entertainment is the same as prostitution. It is no more prostitution than play actors, than authors than game designers. The world operates on trade. You want me to do something for you, you need to do something for me. You want someone to type out spreadsheets, I'll do it if you pay me. You want read the book I spent 3 years working on, you can if you pay me. You want me to spend 20 hours building an adventure for you to derail for your entertainment, I'll do it if you pay me.
No, just getting paid doesn't make you good at your hobby, but it is an incentive to improve your craft. I'm currently working on my drawing hobby so I can draw out my npc's and characters for my games, and if I get good enough, I'm going to offer to do commissions for other gamers who want them.
The one biggest benefit of paid GMs verses unpaid, is control over players who join. The pay wall creates a filter and the gms price determines the guard of the filter. A GM who charges a 20 dollar game per player will have a higher amount of players interested over the GM who charges 50 dollars. I know people who would pay 50 dollars for a 6 hour session with a reputable GM. I know people who would pay 20 bucks just have someone run a game, I've been offered money to GM.
The ultimate fact is, as long as rpgs become more and more popular, paid gms will be unavoidable. Not everyone can run a game, not everyone wants to run a game, so to help control supply and demand, pay walls will become more and more common. If your not willing to pay, it's going to be harder to find a GM than if you are willing to pay. It's not going to be a super well paying career path like any subjective based service, but it will be like YouTube, some people will do it for fun, some will be able to make a small amount of money, some people will make a reasonable living, and some people will thrive and make a fortune.
My last point of contention is your advice on, "if you can't find a game, run one yourself..." If you apply the prostitution analogy to it, it breaks that analogy, if you can't find a prostitute for free, become one yourself. GMing most of the time now a days isn't just amongst friends, it's with random people, I get 3 new players every month on average for adventures league and after a while other players drop off. I've made friends yes, but most of the time it's closer to a "one night stand" relationship than "normal" relationship. I know you mean well so this isn't meant to seem over aggressive, but I feel it's kinda insulting to equate paid GMs to prostitution cause the further extension from that is we're a bunch of dumb prostitutes cause we offer our services for free when we could be getting paid for it.

Would you feel the same if it were to be treated like the American FAA does with Private Pilots? If you are a private pilot you may "charge" someone that is riding with you but only an amount that would be equal to the passengers share of the COST of that flight. So,.. It costs a Private Pilot with a small plane $200 in fuel and expense to fly from A to B. There is the pilot and 1 passenger on board. That pilot can legally receive $100 from the passenger in order to offset the cost of the flight. Thoughts?

I see nothing wrong with charging if someone is willing to pay. Being a GM can incur a rather large expenditure. I know I have spent nearly $1000 getting my new group up and running for the new WFRP 4e. With puzzles, metal coins, printer ink, a nice tv and stand for images, new lighting for the game table, etc, etc,.. I would love to be reimbursed at least a portion of these expense as the entire reason for the expense was for everybody to benefit,.. What is wrong with that? I don't get it.

No, it doesn't change my mind.

I have nothing against Players "chipping in" to help defray the costs, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the inherent "conflict of interest" and increased potential for for corruption ie the referee being paid by one of the team of players (the only one) and the resulting potential fo the GM/referee to "go easy" on the players *because* if he doesn't then the players (ie the money source) may not come back. It's the same problem with paid universities - there is the incentive to pass the student *because* the student has paid a lot of money.

That's just one reason, there are many others (some of which are outlined in the original Blog Entry).

But if people want to do it then that's up to them - I've outlined why I don't favour the practice, and its a position I've come to after many long hours of careful consideration over many years.

I understand what you are saying but I don't think you represent the gaming community as a whole. Some people don't have a group and want an enjoyable experience. Some GMs are tough others are soft whether they are paid or not. That doesn't mean you cannot have a great game under each type of GM even if they are paid. I gather that most people that pay for a GM just want an enjoyable experience. If someone asked me to run a game and said we will pay you for the experience of an amazing game, I would take it. I wouldn't even play with people that would be tempted to bribe me... But that's me. I think you are looking at the most nefarious of the paid GMs as skulking in the shadows taking bribes as if it's an NFL game. When did RPGers become "Purists" or "Hipsters". You can have an immensely enjoyable game under a paid GM... Why couldn't you? I don't always play the game with friends... I have played the game with people I could not stand to be around but that didn't take away from my game experience.
I have taken it easy on my players before and have fudged a few rolls. Some DMs think this is something that ruins games. I think having a TPK on a random encounter is just stupid especially when it comes down to a few random 20s being rolled and these random goblins score a few crit hits.
To each there own, though. I would never say you have to accept paid DMs but I don't think you should knock it either. Just because it doesn't fit your mold of friends, fun, or social outlook.
When looking for a GM experience isn't always key. I know GMs that have been doing it for decades and I think they are terrible GMs because that is not my play style. Others players may love them. Find what works for you and if you find a GM for sale and want to try his/her game give it a shot and if you enjoy it and want to keep paying him/her then I think that is great. It's about storytelling as far as I am concerned.

Well, unfortunately your points, while I understand and 3even agree with them, aren't valid if you can't FIND anyone to DM at all, or at least anyone *good*. I live in a rural area where the gaming population isn't high enough to support any kind of community or have any choice in GMs. So basically I am forced to use FG if I want to game at all. Nothing wrong with that, really - though I do miss the in-person social aspect you talk about.

But I have to say that so far (a couple years) my experience with GMs here has been... ranging from "not bad" to "awful", with most pretty average. I haven't found the "perfect" GM yet, though I've met some nice people. This situation really isn't anyone's fault. A really good GM is a rare and valuable thing. it takes a very specific combination of skills - attention to detail, personality, creativity, acting, and especially willingness to sacrifice a lot of time. The only people I blame are the GMs who are terrible, think they are God's Gift to Gaming, and refuse to take any feedback. Luckily, that type is pretty rare.

I look at it in a pragmatic way. 1) I really enjoy gaming, and I enjoy it much more with a great GM. 2) I haven't found any really GREAT GMs so far, partly because they are rare and partly because you an;t tell that until you play in their campaign for a while, so you can only "try out" a few of them, slowly. 3) I have limited time for gaming. Like most of you, I'm a grownup with a wife and job etc so I can't just spend as many hours as I want gaming. So I want those hours to *count*. To be *fun*. I want interesting and detailed adventures - either a canned one, or a really good self-made one. But let's face it, most homemade campaigns aren't that great unless you have a great GM who spends a heck of lot of time on it making maps etc. And finally 4) I judge my entertainment budget by dollars-per-hour of entertainment. A computer game is great value because even though it costs $60, I will probably get 100 hours of entertainment out of it, so - less than $1/hour. Totally worth it. Going to see a movie, on the opposite end, is a terrible value - roughly $30 for two hours of entertainment. $10/hour, ten times more expensive than a computer game (and you can just rent them for $5 when they are released). So if I pay a GM, say, $20 for a really good 4-hour session, that's $5/hour for a high quality of something I really enjoy. Good value for me. heck, many people spend $5 on a cup of coffee or a hamburger. It's not hard to spend $50 for 1.5 hours at a nice restaurant, and I do that fairly regularly.

So the cost is small and a very good value to have a really good time. Very worth it for me. I'd be happy to pay, but I just haven't found anyone so far who is SO good that I would pay. If there were a plethora of really awesome GMs out there for free, that would be great. But there isn't. So when you have a low supply and a high demand, you have a market. I actually wish there were an organized market for professional GMs. It doesn't harm anyone who prefers to play free, but it would help people like me with no local community and high standards. I've been gaming since the eraly 80's and had some really *amazingly* good GMs, so maybe I'm just picky. Maybe I got spoiled. But I know I'd be happy to pay for that experience again.

Is it unfair to want others to pitch in for the seven hundred or so dollars that goes into the modules and subscriptions?

Originally Posted by EthanT

Is it unfair to want others to pitch in for the seven hundred or so dollars that goes into the modules and subscriptions?

No, of course not - and I mention that above. But I wasn't talking about that in my initial post.

I find your tennis analogy way off point to the point I question if you understand what you are paying a GM for. In my case, people pay because I create the adventures and campaigns from the ground up so they are paying me because they are experiencing a story. I view it as akin to being an author, I create the story and plot lines and the players influence the world I have created. As for your hubris comment, it isn't that we think we are all Mathew Mercer or anything close. It is strickly a matter of this is a story I created so why should I give away all the time it took me to develop it?

If you want paid for your authoring/storytelling ability, package it up and sell it to others, IMHO. Good luck.

First of all, I do not get paid to GM, nor do I pay for that service as a player. However, I ask you to consider this: people pay master storytellers to entertain them -- Book Clubs, and other organizations pay for engagements with authors all the time. Should a GOOD storyteller who's medium happens to be Role Playing Games, not be afforded the same privileges?

As I said above, I have never paid a GM to conduct a game though if they were REALLY good, I might consider it.

Comin' in late, comin' in hot...

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and of course the OP has stated his clearly. And it's ok to have that opinion. Simply put, D-O will not pay nor charge for RPGs he's involved in. But it's the justifications that are off base IMO.

Pretending that all RPGs are within the sanctity of everlasting friendship (I may be exaggerating here) and that is what makes it a great game is ludicrous. What about games at conventions? The RPG rooms at Gen Con, Origins et el are packed to the gills with people who have PAID to be there. And while those GMs did not directly receive cash from the players, each and every one of them was compensated for the time spent running those games. I have been in some EPIC one-shots at conventions with people I have never met, and have never seen again, and still will tell stories about what happened. No one thinks twice about forking over the badge fee, event fee, etc for a convention, and in these cases your players and GM are sight unseen. I've also been in some games with not so good GMs, but wrote it off as bad luck for the money spent. And btw, I tell stories about how bad those games were as well.

As far as 'conflict of interest' or the 'corruption' involved...what GM worth his/her salt doesn't fudge the dice or change on the fly for the benefit of the story? I've never been paid for a game - thought about it, still thinking about it, but it hasn't happened...yet. But I've fudged plenty in 40+ years of gaming in order to make the story better for all involved. I've also had bad luck take down many players in that time, and yet they keep coming back. Because the story is good. The money should make no difference. A good GM (and person) will have that discussion up front (along with quite a bit of other details) with their players. "Listen, we are in this together for the story, and while I appreciate your support, we aren't going to do this any differently because of the business relationship. My only guarantee is we will have fun." And if they aren't having fun, they are free to walk. It seems to me that the games I've seen advertised are a 'pay as you play' setup, so you aren't out $200 for a campaign you hate if you walk. You've only paid for the sessions you've been in. There is the added bonus that if the game sucks, the GM will be out of paying customers...problem solved.

The point D-O made that paid games = paid sex is just foolishness. Games with friends are fun, leave lasting marks, and provide endless stories. But they are NOT sacrosanct events that can only be achieved by the closest of friends and comrades. Stating otherwise is to be speaking from high upon the horse of righteousness, looking down on the the poor masses who will never understand true gaming greatness. To say that paying for the gaming experience cheapens it demonstrates a lack of empathy for the thousands of people who - I don't know - pay money every year (Gen Con, Origins) to play their games with strangers.

In the end, you vote with your $$$. Don't like it? Don't pay. But let's stop being so sanctimonious about it.

Well as GM's we all know how much work it is to run a Campaign for our Players. Even running a official module takes work. For the most of us GM's that is part of the fun, many do that for Friends, so okay.
But: i could totally understand ppl that make this Gm ing for theyr Living. If they offer their Players a good, reliable Service, why not?
Seeing some streams in yt or twitch i cant help of thinking: yes, that Looks like so much fun, why should i not pay some Money to be part of it? Why not? Going to watch a movie or a theatre,Football game - anything entertaining will cost me some Money.
I cant see any wrong in beeing a professional GM

Originally Posted by dulux-oz

I'm talking about the inherent "conflict of interest" and increased potential for for corruption ie the referee being paid by one of the team of players (the only one) and the resulting potential fo the GM/referee to "go easy" on the players *because* if he doesn't then the players (ie the money source) may not come back.

I've been in a number of paid games now and I can categorically say those things just don't happen. First and foremost, in paid games the cost is shared by all the players, so there can be no favoritism. Second, since no one in the world, I think, makes their living by being a paid GM, the incentive to keep customers by coddling them is nonexistent. Everyone understands that games come and go, players come and go, and life goes on. It's not the same as, say, a salesman who works on commission. A GM would do *far* better and make a lot more money by just being a good, honest, talented craftsman who runs interesting and fun games instead of trying to weasel a few extra bucks by "going easy" on them. Good GMs constantly raise or lower the difficulty based on how things go anyways, it's part of the job,

You are also ignoring the huge benefits of paid games. I've been in a couple now and I LOVE them. Some of the best games I've every played! They run so differently. First, everyone shows up and they show up on time. There is a LOT less "oh I can't play tonight I want to watch a movie instead" kind of thing, a lot less dropping out at the last minute. People put it in their schedule and make other commitments around it - which they should do for any game but most don't take very seriously when it's free. If they know they can;t make it, they let the others know well ahead of time so rescheduling is possible.

Secondly, there is MUCH less screwing around and getting nothing done during the session. Sure, people still joke around and have fun, but generally they want the story to progress and do not waste time on stupid stuff. In one free game I was in, a guy with hundreds of gold pieces in his pocket took up about 40 minutes of game time haggling with a weapons merchant just to try to save a few coppers on a plain old mace. That kind of thing just doesn't happen in paid games.

Also, while the "money incentive" provides an incentive to the GM to do their homework, be prepared. plan ahead, and so on. And they feel pride in their work, get a good reputation, and feel like they get something tangible for all the hours it takes.

In general I'm saying people value things thy pay for a lot more than free things. As they say, "no one washes a rented car." When people are paying for a game they take it more seriously and try harder to squeeze in a lot of roleplaying and fun rather than sitting around chitchatting about nothing. Also, "problem" players are much more likely to be kicked out because no one wants their paid game to be ruined by some moron who can't behave.

I heart my paid GM!

Originally Posted by dulux-oz

IBut if people want to do it then that's up to them - I've outlined why I don't favour the practice, and its a position I've come to after many long hours of careful consideration over many years.

Well, that's not strictly true, is it, that "it's up to them." In the license for the extensions you've written you specifically prohibit them form being used in paid games. Everyone ignores it, of course, but it seems rather petty of you to be honest. If you want to take a "live and let live" approach you would remove the restriction. It wouldn't change anything, but it would be a nice symbolic display of gamer unity and freedom to choose the way we play.

Originally Posted by Frunobulax

Well, that's not strictly true, is it, that "it's up to them." In the license for the extensions you've written you specifically prohibit them form being used in paid games. Everyone ignores it, of course, but it seems rather petty of you to be honest. If you want to take a "live and let live" approach you would remove the restriction. It wouldn't change anything, but it would be a nice symbolic display of gamer unity and freedom to choose the way we play.

Can't believe I missed this, but F is spot on with this. Can't have it both ways: "I totally respect your decision to pay for your games, but you aren't going to use MY (super useful and essential, and I mean that ) work while doing it...because I don't like paid games".

I was once paid to run a weekly game. At first it felt strange and odd to be paid for something I would have done for free. The people I was playing with insisted on paying for the game. I did have an initial worry that if I was too hard on them during the game that they would not want to play any longer. That was quickly dispelled the first time I killed one of the characters in what should have been a mundane battle with a mid-boss fight. They loved it and the player rolled a new character. I was no more lenient in the gameplay than I would have been in a "free" game. Any paid GM should hold a session 0 like any other game and outline this guidance and establish their expectations versus the group's. In the end if they want easy mode, then they get what they paid. I don't believe most people feel that way.
Here is the key thing. I would have never become friends with this group playing online. They were all friends looking for an experience in playing this game. I was the facilitator of the game, and they were paying me to remain committed to providing original content and running the game. In the end it was a pure business transaction. We all had fun and I pocketed some extra money.
In the end, I see nothing wrong with my time, which is the only commodity we have to barter with, being paid for.
I currently run a "free" game with people I'll probably never become true friends with, but we have fun together. In the end I see no difference between running a free game and getting paid to run a game with strangers on the internet. The analogy that you wouldn't pay to play a game is a bit flawed as I'm sure many of us have spent money to rent a table or played games at a shop and bought something while we are there. It is not unheard to reward the people who sponsor games. The paid GM is just a more direct way to get that result.

I'm a professional GM and children's entertainer. I'm not going to get into the think of this discussion because I don't feel particularly motivated to argue any of the points (most of which have been argued to death already). I will just raise one point which I've not seen addressed once since everyone is approaching this topic from the mindset of "we're all adults and this is an adult game."

More kids than ever before are wanting to play Dungeons & Dragons. More parents than ever before want some kind of positive activity for their kids to do after school that encourages social development, teamwork, math, language, and cooperative problem-solving skills. Most (but not all) of my "clients" are parents and/or schools who have hired me to run games for groups of kids for a couple of hours after school. These kids love playing D&D, and the parents love that it is administered by a trained adult with children care skills who can supervise them and mentor them during play. Anyone who would argue that this is in any way like prostitution makes me feel sick to the core. The service I provide is more like a friggin' after-school soccer coach. There is a lot of positive things that this business I am running is doing for those kids, and I'd argue that this alone is a perfect justification for the existence of my business.

Also, come on man. You can make your points about why you dislike paid-for games without going so low as to call me a prostitute.

I find it hard to believe that anyone would argue against that particular use-case of professional GM. I think most that are against it are against the "hobby"-play GMs that are charging for their time. But, just like prostitution (or any vice, for that matter), it's (hobby-paid) only there because there is a demand for it for some reason.

Originally Posted by JoshuaBarbeau

More parents than ever before want some kind of positive activity for their kids to do after school that encourages social development, teamwork, math, language, and cooperative problem-solving skills.

An excellent example! My daughter plays in a Sunday group for kids who need help developing social skills. The game is run through a local counseling service. The young man who runs it is paid per player, and it's so popular, he now has two groups of 5+ kids.

Also, come on man. You can make your points about why you dislike paid-for games without going so low as to call me a prostitute.

Yup, made this point as well.