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  1. LindseyFan's Avatar
    I of course agree 100% with Dulux-Oz. I think everything he said in the OP and follow-ups are pretty spot on in assessment of this bizarre habit. A comment that struck me though is how the game play experience may be altered because those that pay may expect an easier time (ala pay-to-win). I now know I personally could never be paid... I crave the tears of anguish that can only come from a solid TPK. I wash my dice in them (both in the physical and virtual world). There is nothing like seeing how trembling fingers type and mispell: "bbut do do I gget a ssssave?" Ctrl+F3 - my macro for the response "No!" hehehehehehe

    Seriously though, how much fun is a person paid to tell you about a treasure you found? Compare that with someone who waited all week to make sure every copper you place in your pouch is done so with blood soaked hands. Does a paladin truly feel brave confronting beatable foe after beatable foe? Or does she truly live when she tells her friends to run while she holds back the horde?

    I pay to watch movies. I play with my friends to experience a different life. That and to collect those salty tears... love 'em!
  2. dulux-oz's Avatar
    No, I don't think GMing is inherently (or otherwise) a skill-less or valueless commodity - I don't think its a commodity at all, and anyone who treats it as a commodity to be bought and sold is missing both the point and the true joy (the deeper, more meaningful aspects) of gaming, just like anyone who buys and sells sex is missing out on the true joys (the deeper, more meaningful aspects) of "making love". Not everything is nor should be subjected to "market forces", and I maintain that GMing is one of those things.

    Look, I find you arguments unconvincing and/or "false flags", but I'm not going to argue with you further because it is obvious neither you nor I will convince nor be convinced by the other. I've laid out my arguments to my position and you've laid out yours. If people want to engage in paid gaming or not then its up to them, just like its up to the individual to oppose paid gaming if that's their view. I and others are not in favor of it; you are, and so let's just leave it at that, shall we?
  3. Full Bleed's Avatar
    Charging someone doesn't make you better. But in the real world the cream does usually rise to the top. Quality of service and demand usually sets the market value of something.

    And I know for a fact that I don't approach the games I run as a "professional" (largely, of course, because I'm not being paid). And I bet you don't either. So I'm not sure why you're question the veracity of the assertion. I might show up 5 minutes late... or pick up a phone call... talk to the wife... talk about politics, religion, or something personal that happened to me that week... I might even belch amoungst friends... curse unnecessarily or say something provocative that has nothing to do with the game... take a bathroom break when I could hold it... eat and drink without muting... let a player derail the game... be sloppy with my syntax or recollection of something. I would, in short, run the game exactly how I felt like running it. And so long as it seemed like everyone was having a reasonably good time, and the game was moving, I'd be ok with it. So, pretty much nothing like I am when I'm doing something "professionally".

    I would also argue that GMing is, indeed, a more tangible skill than you seem to indicate. Like public speaking. Or teaching. Storytelling. Writing. Etc. I've seen teachers that have been teaching for 30 years that I thought were horrible. And teachers that had only been doing it for 2 that were awesome. Experience is not the sole indicator of quality, let alone professionalism. Charisma, Wisdom, and Intelligence--for example--aren't just stats in a game. Real people posses these traits, too. And what they do with them matters.

    And there is certainly a VAST differentiation in the quality of GMing out there. And quite a spectrum of the kind of campaign any particular GM might be good, great, or awful at. Some might be great at story telling, at running efficient combat, at varying the behaviour of enemies or NPC's, keeping the players moving, subtlety across the board, rules mastery/application, the art of compromise, conflict management, improvisational skills, and on and on and on. Every cut of meat isn't the same.

    I just don't agree that the people willing to pay for a GM are like johns at all. On the flip-side, I'm more inclined to think people who think they're "good GM's" are probably like all those guys that think they're awesome in bed. I mean, how many guys have you ever heard say they were terrible in the sack? I know of none. However, women will tell you otherwise (when speaking about their exes, of course... their husbands and boyfriends are awesome. )

    A lot of people play golf for nothing. Some can get paid to do it. Almost everyone can grill a steak. Others get paid to do it. Some people do wood-working as a hobby. Some people get paid to do it. Some people love to paint and draw. Some people get paid to do it. Some people can play guitar. Some people get paid to do it. Some people spend time on forums helping people they don't know figure out how to set up their networking. Some people get paid to provide technical support. Some people program for a hobby and share the fruits of their labor for nothing. And some people get paid to do it. Some lawyers and doctors get paid millions. Some do a lot of "work" pro-bono.

    Getting paid to do something that you're good at doesn't make you a bad person. And paying someone for something they're good at doesn't make you socially deficient. Maybe it just makes you practical. If you go over a friend's house and they cook a meal, you won't hold it to the same standard that you would hold a $100 meal at a restaurant. And that's fine. But, ya know, maybe you want that $100 meal instead of mushrooms in the sauce when you don't like them, or medium-well when you want medium-rare, or white wine instead of red.

    So, yeah, if you think GMing is--inherently--a worthless, skill-less, valueless commodity that anyone can do at the highest level... then, sure, no one should ever consider paying for it.

    Others, as you've acknowledge in your opening, probably beg to differ.
  4. dulux-oz's Avatar
    I would debate that there is anyone who is more "professional" than those of us who have been GMing for a number of years.

    I take your point on your time being valuable - I consider my time valuable as well - but it come back to the idea of "Prostitution" - just because you charge people to have sex with you doesn't make you better at sex (or more importantly, better at "making love"), it just makes you better at milking people for money for an activity that the rest of us engage in and enjoy for free.
    Updated September 30th, 2017 at 15:18 by dulux-oz
  5. Full Bleed's Avatar
    The fact that some are willing to pay for someone to provide them with a more "professional" gaming experience strikes me as no less reasonable, or distasteful, than paying someone to cook them a meal.

    I know that my time is my most valuable commodity. And the only reason I don't run pay-to-play games is because I seriously doubt anyone would be willing to pay me what my time is worth. But, make no mistake, in order for me to justify running more than the games I do run... I'd need to put a price on that commodity.

    Welcome to the wide world of capitalism. Which, btw, is the only reason this industry even exists.
  6. LordEntrails's Avatar
    "Distasteful" I agree. Following through with the sex analogy, it makes me feel similarly as to when I think of prostitution. I have trouble finding a moral objection to sex for money, but it (like paid GMing) gives me a sense of ... sorrow and regret. I guess I would feel better about paying for play (& sex) if it was in addition to a 'free' relationship(s) and not as a substitute or alternative.

    I understand social anxiety, and the difficulty many have finding friends (or lovers), but it truly is worth the adversity to find that group of friends to play an RPG with. Its possible, the RPG community is full of unique people with every type of difference.

    Yea, paid GMing/gaming is a thing. I've seen people over the last year advertising for such on various forums and blogs and a few video teasers. I'll be surprised if it ever becomes very successful over a wide spectrum.
  7. Bidmaron's Avatar
    Wow is this really a thing?
  8. Stuart's Avatar
    Absolutely agree, I think "distasteful" is the most apt descriptor.
  9. LordEntrails's Avatar
    Interesting thoughts. I think this ties in with Ego. By itself, ego is not a bad thing. Being driven by it is.

    Addiction, to me, is being driven by a need for something. Akin to ego, Need is not bad, being driven by it is.

    I too ask questions, different ones, but introspection and reflection is a good thing. If we don't ask ourselves why we do things, and if we should be doing them, and reflect upon them, then their is a very real possibility that we will do things out of habit and not to help build a better future us.
  10. LordEntrails's Avatar
    Thanks for the laughs
  11. LordEntrails's Avatar
    But what is the second and first most embarrassing ways to die in Australia?!?!? I've got to know! Please?
  12. dulux-oz's Avatar
    Thanks MD.

    If you liked this post then you may like to check out the others from my Blog

    Cheers
  13. MarianDz's Avatar
    Nice Dulux-Oz please continue in writting blogs like this, because this kind of informations are most valuable for every new adventurer and DM too. Seems to me like Im reading old parchment covered with dust of ages, hidden for years in secret chamber, written by old wise and experienced man. All words which he put to this "masterpiece" scroll are carefully choosen, and messages clear for everyone. Hope my dices give me success roll again and I could find another scroll like this was
    Updated September 20th, 2016 at 09:30 by MarianDz
  14. dulux-oz's Avatar
    I didn't realise anyone was interested - I'll post Part 2 ASAP
  15. LordEntrails's Avatar
    I'm still waiting to learn how you got the felt to fit from a single piece
  16. dulux-oz's Avatar
    Don't forget that the weights I used were based on historical coins, not modern ones - a 10g coin was a very heavy coin for its day

    But yeah, I like to ask my players similar questions (its also good for when they've got very expensive rugs to get out of the dungeon )
  17. bluedreamer's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by dulux-oz
    Yeah, I always felt that was to heavy for a coin. One of the DnD versions (I can't remember which one) said 100 coins per pound, and another Fantasy RGP has said 150 coins per pound.

    As I said in my post I like to be "historically" accurate, but in all honesty as long as you're consistent I don't really think it matters
    True, consistency is key. But don't forget that modern coins are using alloys to make them light, maybe back in the day they were actually heavier. 10g a coint for the 50 to 1lb doesn't sound too bad although you have 3.5g


    I just wanted something for when my PC's find 100,000 cp and say we will take them :-) I like to ask how
  18. dulux-oz's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedreamer
    I did a weight calculator for 5e and 4e. The PHB does say 50 coins to 1lb

    http://www.bluedreamer.com/money/
    Yeah, I always felt that was to heavy for a coin. One of the DnD versions (I can't remember which one) said 100 coins per pound, and another Fantasy RGP has said 150 coins per pound.

    As I said in my post I like to be "historically" accurate, but in all honesty as long as you're consistent I don't really think it matters
  19. Mortar's Avatar


    Been a long time since I listened to this, now I can't stop.
  20. bluedreamer's Avatar
    I did a weight calculator for 5e and 4e. The PHB does say 50 coins to 1lb

    http://www.bluedreamer.com/money/
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